Sexism and other isms

Life Dating & Relationships
61

[quote=“divea”]I am tired of the sexism tirade too. Sexism needs to be stood up against and not tolerated at ALL, and yet making derogatory statements about one or the other gender is ugggghh. Calling men stupid and expecting to be respected at the same time is :thumbsdown: . Secondly you always see what you are, men who think they are weak and not good enough see other men and women in the same light.

If you’re a good person, you will see goodness in others and that ends a lot of isms. Ranting doesn’t.[/quote]

Very well said, on all points. :thumbsup:

62

Sorry, coming to this thread rather late, but I am afraind you missed the target by miles:
The biggest threat to women’s equality in this thread? sorrym that doesn’t make sense. The issue is the biggest threat to women’s equality in the world. And that is, statistically speaking, (still) men’s attitudes and actions - demonstrably, provably so…

Even if a woman were to state that in an aggressive, angry, or rude manner it would not make it any less true.

And even if a woman were to point that out in the politest way possible, “you guys” (I mean those to whom it applies) would go through automatic defense motions, regardless. That, too, doesn’t make it less true, although the reaction is understandable.

I give more weight to the views of people (regardless of what sex or gender) who have an understanding of the facts.

:bow:[/quote]

That’s because the entire thread is different now that a significant portion is in temp, and yet my words remain. I appreciate your thoughts on the matter, but they don’t apply since what I said was said in an entirely different context due to thread splitting. I can’t be bothered to update you on everything you missed. If you’re really interested I’m sure there’s ways of figuring it out from various temp threads.

63

Thanks for the info - i found and read the lenghty temp thread…

… which were as follows:

Well, that still ain’t so - regardless of what Ermintrude may have posted on Forumosa and regardless of how tired people may be of sexism tirades, the thread itself is rather irrelevant - what remains is what i said:
the biggest threat to women’s equality in the world is, statistically speaking and clearly provable, (still) men’s attitudes and actions…
(There is a hint in there as to where/how solutions might be found :wink: and also why i have no patience when it comes to defensiveness on part of men, as understandable as it may be on a personal level.)
Oh, and i invite you to try and prove me wrong!

mic.com/articles/92585/albert-ei … e-textbook

64

This

and that

are (logically) not at all connected.
As much as i agree with the second part of your comment, i think the first one is a (logically) dangerous (sort of “slippery slope” kind of) argument.
:ponder:

65

And on a more personal note: my own relationship with the Forumosa community started 5 years ago, and i have (unfortunately) had to read more male-chauvinist stuff on Forumosa than i ever would have wanted to see/hear (sure, much of it apparently not deliberately hurtful - just thoughtless, automatic, or what-have-you). I am pretty sure that Forumosa does not reflect (any) society as a whole (which one, anyway?) in a statistically accurate way, but qualitatively it appears to correlate well with what i have found “out there” (meaning, the world outside of Forumosa). (Yeah, about this, too you could try and prove me wrong - i would very much like to be proven wrong about sexism.)

66

Yeah,but I think I called myself a great white who occasionally bites South Africans. I think the analogy still works. :laughing:

Always SUPER-interesting to hear other people express opinions I disagree with. White women’s disapproval must be more powerful than I thought. I’m humbled! The gist seems to be I’M RIGHT but I should pretend to respect men or they’ll get angry and that undermines my ‘physician, heal thyself’ message. I have -literally! - no idea how, but I respect your right to not sit quietly and look at cat pictures on the information superhighway.

Yuli, that’s the thing: they don’t even know how pervasive the anti-female discourse is because it’s the dominant discourse. If you point it out, you just get screechy ‘oversensitive’ ‘feminazi’ ‘youre bitter and unhappy’ ‘need to get laid but you can’t because …’ scripts, raspberry rippled with the ‘not all men’ thema. It’s supposed to overwrite your lived experience with the words of the dominant. You see this happen with race too. ‘They’re the most racist of all!’ said about the minority groups and micro-aggressions are equated with violence and social discrimination and ‘but I’m not racist: some of my best friends are Pakistani or Polish!’

I know I’m doing it. It’s a rhetorical device. It causes outrage and hostility. That’s why I do it. It’s a mirror and it also works like dye in a colonoscopy. Also because it’s funny.

1 Like
67

Thanks for the info - i found and read the lenghty temp thread…

… which were as follows:

Well, that still ain’t so - regardless of what Ermintrude may have posted on Forumosa and regardless of how tired people may be of sexism tirades, the thread itself is rather irrelevant - what remains is what I said:
the biggest threat to women’s equality in the world is, statistically speaking and clearly provable, (still) men’s attitudes and actions…
(There is a hint in there as to where/how solutions might be found :wink: and also why I have no patience when it comes to defensiveness on part of men, as understandable as it may be on a personal level.)
Oh, and i invite you to try and prove me wrong!

mic.com/articles/92585/albert-ei … e-textbook[/quote]

I didn’t say in the world, I said in that particular thread.

I never argued whether Ermintrude was the greatest threat to feminism in the world, that’s obviously ridiculous.

If you want to argue with me, feel free, but please try to argue against my point, not some wild red herring which has nothing to do with my point.

68

‘One man came here to justify, one man to overthrow.’

The assent, approval or cooperation of the dominant group is not a requirement. :braveheart:

yuli, you have permission to argue, but with conditions.

69

I know. I read it. :slight_smile: Then i pointed to where the real issue lies…

Sorry, it’s an uninteresting point, so i’ll excuse myself. :bow:

Here is something more interesting: men helping boys by making them think differently about girls
telegraph.co.uk/men/relation … girls.html

If any man ever had the slightest worry along the lines of “am i the only man who cares about this”, he need not worry:
all over the world there are men who care (not being anywhere near the majority does not prove that they are wrong).
Finding like-minded people is, of course, easier in some places (real and virtual) than in others… :slight_smile:

70

Hope this helps:

www.ism.lt
www.ism.org
www.isminc.com
www.ism-cologne.com
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISM_band

You are welcome.

71

I know. I read it. :slight_smile: Then i pointed to where the real issue lies…

Sorry, it’s an uninteresting point, so I’ll excuse myself. :bow: [/quote]

So you wandered in to castigate me for being wrong, threw a whole bunch of arguments which had nothing to do with what I said, then whined your way out and avoided actually addressing the point you were so sure was wrong?

Ok, go with that.

Now when you’re ready to answer the question:

Should people make sexist comments?

Drop back by. Until then continue blindly walking into threads you apparently don’t bother to understand, and arguing against points you also apparently don’t bother to understand.

On a personal note, the torture prisons in North Korea are a horrible thing and WTF is wrong with you for supporting that by arguing against sexism against women? Why exactly do you want to see North Koreans raped and tortured, Yuli?

There, now we both told each other off for something neither one if us actually did. Yay, we got to feel all self righteous and avoid any actual point the other person made, isn’t this fun?

72

It’s widely understood that women experience discrimination far and away worse than anything men experience. That’s true even in developed, democratic nations. In some places of the world, women are still looked at as brood mares, effectively slaves, forbidden from getting an education, driving a car, holding a job, or living any kind of life outside of being a wife and bearing children. We’re all familiar with the stories of men holding down young girls and burning their faces off with acid because they went to school, among many other horrible and tragic stories. Some posters believe that this discrimination justifies hateful bigotry towards men. Women experience more discrimination, so it’s OK for women to be narrow-minded and spiteful. That’s how the thinking goes. Well, since we’re on the topic of dangerous, slippery logic, that one really takes the cake. If we follow this thinking to its unfortunate conclusion, black people have the right to make bigoted statements about white people. Gay people have the right to making bigoted statements about straight people. Japanese-born Koreans have the right to make bigoted statements about ethnic Japanese. Etc etc.

Well, count me out of the hate-fest. I don’t think that bigotry is justified in any circumstance. Each person should be judged as an individual. Carrying a load of negative assumptions about a person based on their gender, race, etc., is literally the definition of prejudice. It’s amazing to me that otherwise intelligent, educated people have here bought into such small-minded spite.

73

[quote=“Gao Bohan”]
Well, count me out of the hate-fest. I don’t think that bigotry is justified in any circumstance. Each person should be judged as an individual. Carrying a load of negative assumptions about a person based on their gender, race, etc., is literally the definition of prejudice. It’s amazing to me that otherwise intelligent, educated people have here bought into such small-minded spite.[/quote]

This is the conclusion I’ve come to and I’ll add to it.
“Carrying a load of negative assumptions about a person based on their gender, race, etc., is literally the definition of prejudice and it will make you miserable to spend a lot of time entertaining those thoughts.”

I can’t remember exactly when it was- I should look through my notes and try to figure it out, but at some point in the last year I had this horrible realization. I AM SEXIST. It was such a crazy moment, because I really hate sexism (against women :wink: ). I had to even say it aloud because it hit me so hard. How many times a day did “men are so stupid” go through my head? Kind of a lot. I don’t think I’ve always been sexist- I think it got really bad at the midway point of the years I lived in Taiwan. The thought that got me to realize my own sexism was when I started to develop a theory that marrying or otherwise settling down with a man would be a lot like going into business with a crack addict-- my thought was that his libido/sex was the addiction. I just saw so many men behaving badly on account of satisfying their more carnal desires.

Not only that but I sought out sources to prove that I was right. Reading pick up artist shit (Still really good for a laugh, but NOT useful when it comes to letting go of my sexism) reading the more thorny stuff about the men’s movement, red pill stuff on reddit…reading forumosa.com :laughing: So easy to find evidence to back me up! Because there are a lot of stupid men! And even though there was a certain comfort in the righteous indignation I felt when I found yet another example of how stupid men were, I have to say the effect my own sexism had on my life as a whole was not positive. And that’s where I had to start from- because I’m a selfish person, I knew the only thing that would motivate me to change was seeing how my own sexism hurt me.

Believing 50some odd % of the population is shitty and stupid did not make me feel good (even if I counted myself among the other 50%). who wants to be surrounded by morons all day? Does it feel good to be surrounded by morons? Is it satisfying? Like I said, the righteous indignation can give you a little boost :laughing: but it’s a far cry from long-lasting happiness.

And even though I was in the process of limping off a horrific failure of a relationship at the time (likely a contributing factor to my surge of sexism), I knew that somehow, someday, I did want a HEALTHY satisfying relationship with a MAN. Because though I’ve tried at times to convince myself otherwise (for the sake of convenience and not having to deal with idiots) I love cock and I’m profoundly straight. Sigh. Anyways were my sexist thoughts going to help me have a healthy relationship with a man? Seriously. No. If I thought of my future significant other the way Pujwhateverhisnameis thinks about his wife (as a child, as an idiot) there’s no way that I would be able to take his needs seriously and give him what he needed to be happy. There’s no way I would be able to create the kind of relationship and eventually :astonished: family I wanted if I believed my partner was an idiot (and not even by virtue of his own actions, but because of prejudice.)

Anyways I started consciously trying to collect stories of good men. I laid off the PUA reading, blocked reddit for a while, and though I didn’t quite kick my forumosa addiction, I tried to look for examples of good men on forumosa— and they’re HERE. Even if they aren’t as loud as some of our other resident retards. Instead of thinking of the guys I knew who were cheating, I tried to focus on my brother- who’s the best man I know and the man I know best. He’s such a good person. If a person like that can exist in a male body then obviously not all men are idiots. My brother is a good dude, awesome husband, amazing father. He’s got his shit together, and he benefits the lives of the women (and men) around him. How could I ignore an example that’s right in front of me? Well…maybe because I was halfway around the world.

Anyways, I still struggle sometimes and that reflects in my posts here but I think I’ve made some pretty decent headway when it comes to seeing men as people first, not as idiots with crack addictions. And that change reflects in my life. I am dating this amazing guy. And I sincerely don’t think he’s an idiot. I’ll let ya know if I get burned for my optimism.

I think it’s like anything else. There’s evidence enough to support all sorts of theories about the world- you can pretty much collect any facts you want to believe any thing you want. So it makes sense to direct your focus to the positive and delude yourself a little to believe the positive, because even if you’re “wrong” you’ll be happy, and just thinking more about the positive will cause you to take actions that bring you closer to the positive.

74

Yeah, listen, not to mitigate your intentions here or anything, but I would submit that this term, which you employ with some regularity, is rather more vulgar than is appropriate for this venue.
I’m not making a joke.
One can appreciate that the origins of your frequent use possibly lie in an effort to demonstrate that you can pottymouth with the best of the lads, and as far as that goes, you know, good on yiz.
The only thing is, I’m pretty sure that if any of the fellas here were to start slinging terminology of equal gutterality referring to women’s anatomically focused practices, they would be met with more than a little censure, certainly by this raccoon.
Equal treatment, equal standards, no?
I’ve no doubt that Ma NTCLT raised you better than that.

Not for nothing, and you may not be aware of this, it isn’t actually the “getting wet” part that most dudes are so motivated about, it’s the bit that usually happens after.
Just in, you know, the interest of dissertational [strike]acuity[/strike] precision. :thumbsup:

75

All men aren’t stupid. If you accept the construct of IQ (do people, in this day and age?) as a continuum, with 70 – 130 being the range that most people fall on, then a significant amount of male and female populations are below the median. If you find people below 120 a strain, then your percentage rises, meaning it’s very much in the eye of the beholder. A high percentage of men or women will just always be a lot of work because you spend a lot of time thinking about what they are saying, kind of like how the brain works to ‘fill in’ missing visual information when we move our heads quickly. The majority of people are stupid. That’s not a contentious statement: look out the window. And that’s OK.

Now the stretch is when culture dictates gendered behaviour, rather than intellectual choice based on available information: that is where we get the ‘all group x’ is stupid from. When all women either died in the fields in childbirth by 30, or their education consisted of embroidery and drawing, it may be fair to question their suitability to lead nations. The cultural hangover of that born to rule arrogance and violence when women are often more educated in my country than men is hard to take, on a daily basis. Opportunity is the key and I still believe men should have equal access to education in the west, and women should have equal access to education, elsewhere.

The kicker is you don’t have to disrespect low intelligence: processing power and even access to education or influence from a dominant cultural set of behaviours is no more the person’s fault (or conversely, nothing to be proud of either) than their hair colour. But … when those behaviours and practices affect your daily life, it’s hard to remain emotionally neutral towards the dominant group that takes part in those behaviours or tacitly approves of those behaviours in the Burke-ian ‘good men doing nothing’ sense. Those people are simply not the equals of those they oppress: they are inferior people. I simply do not respect people who say ‘foreign women are …’ ‘my wife is batshit crazy’, ‘titstitstitsshowusyourtits’, or the people who say it is acceptable for them to express that, and never will. Not because those people were born with lower intelligence but because I have a visceral reaction towards the aggression that comes from their operational and cultural issues. Opinions are not a set of morally unloaded choices such as which sandwich you prefer, they are you. I understand, I respect your inherent human dignity, I just don’t want to be stuffed with the fruits of it, morning noon and night. I’m not taking your parity by poking fun at you whenever you talk about x, y or z, you are flushing it down the toilet yourselves.

The door is always open, though, however many times men slam it shut. Join people like Rocket, cloud13, Brendon, etc, and say, ‘actually, I don’t want people talking that way to my daughter (and they will, probably when she reaches 10 or 11 years of age) and my friends’. Fuck the red pill AND the blue pill and just come and have a beer with us.

76

[quote=“Rocket”][quote=“NonTocareLeTete”]
…on account of getting their dicks wet.
[/quote]

Yeah, listen, not to mitigate your intentions here or anything, but I would submit that this term, which you employ with some regularity, is rather more vulgar than is appropriate for this venue.
I’m not making a joke.
One can appreciate that the origins of your frequent use possibly lie in an effort to demonstrate that you can pottymouth with the best of the lads, and as far as that goes, you know, good on yiz.
The only thing is, I’m pretty sure that if any of the fellas here were to start slinging terminology of equal gutterality referring to women’s anatomically focused practices, they would be met with more than a little censure, certainly by this raccoon.
Equal treatment, equal standards, no?
I’ve no doubt that Ma NTCLT raised you better than that.

Not for nothing, and you may not be aware of this, it isn’t actually the “getting wet” part that most dudes are so motivated about, it’s the bit that usually happens after.
Just in, you know, the interest of dissertational [strike]acuity[/strike] precision. :thumbsup:[/quote]

Good point. I shall cease and desist with that terminology.

Edit: But what am I going to say in it’s place???

I went with “satisfying their more carnal desires.”
It’ll have to work until I come up with something better.

77

[quote=“NonTocareLeTete”][quote=“Rocket”]
Edit: But what am I going to say in it’s place???
[/quote][/quote]

Aside from spelling “its” properly, you mean? :ohreally:

You’re a clever young lady, I’m sure you’ll think of something.

(I know what I say, but since it involves a baculum, it probably wouldn’t apply.)

78

Blame Amy Winehouse, God rest her soul.

‘have sex’ seems to be working, these days.

79

This is what I’m talking about when I say “stupid,” not so much the IQ thing. I suppose I should come up with a better phrase for it. I guess what I mean is people who destroy valuable things, in the name of something not so valuable. Satisfying their carnal desires, for example, although I guess the value of that could be argued.
Anyways- yeah- mean and women do that, not just men, and I can easily choose to associate, predominantly, with men who aren’t actively destroying the good.

Man this was kind of beautiful Erm, I think I’m going to read it again. Serious.

[quote]
The door is always open, though, however many times men slam it shut. Join people like Rocket, cloud13, Brendon, etc, and say, ‘actually, I don’t want people talking that way to my daughter (and they will, probably when she reaches 10 or 11 years of age) and my friends’. Fuck the red pill AND the blue pill and just come and have a beer with us.[/quote]

80

Yeah, I deleted ‘… BECAUSE WE’LL ALWAYS RULE THE FCKING SKOOL, TARDBOYS!’ :beatnik: