"sexy dancing show...kids get in free"

Taiwan Living in Taiwan
21

Oh my, I am quickly becoming one of the most conservative Forumosans! Who woulda thunk it several years ago when Maoman (or some other longtimer) asked “what are you wearing” and I truthfully replied “black lace thong” or some other stupid thing.

I don’t know if I have a problem with nudity on a beach. I’ve never been to a nude beach. I’ve never been shy about nursing a baby or toddler or preschooler at a beach, restaurant, church or museum. I think I’m really more uncomfortable about the condition of my breasts–they’re just not sexy when you have to roll them up into your bra.

I wonder if we change our ideas as our children get older and also depending on what sex our child(ren) are. I know it has for me. My boys are 12 and 17 and enjoy looking at girls while they’re out and about. I ask them to be respectful. “That’s someone’s sister. Think about how you’re going to feel when your buddy or some jerk on the MRT undresses your little sister with his eyes. Or your sister walks out in her bikini at the pool and all the guys turn to admire her from behind their sunglasses. Just be respectful.” I don’t mean stop. I mean don’t be lewd, rude or crude.

My conservative (by Forumosan standards) opinion is that all this sex in the media and at your neighborhood 7-11 counter desensitizes us as much as violent music/TV/music/ do. We do need to protect them up to a certain point and that point is different for every family, every individual. I try to be open with my kids as I can and answer their questions about sex and baby-making and how it’s possible that daddy’s erect penis fits into mommy’s little vagina and how mommy and daddy kiss when everyone’s asleep (those last two were actual questions that I handled :roflmao: pretty well I think) Some things they don’t need to see or know yet.

Am I really the only who feels this way?

How about the fathers of little girls? MT? Maoman?

22

On the MRT my little girls like to dance and twirl around the pole and my 12yo son, who has seen glimpses of pole dancing on movie previews probably, is embarrassed by it and says it looks like they’re pretending to be strippers. If I brought my 5yo girl to see a real pole dancer she’d be imitating everything she saw! :doh:

23

No. I think that way. I thought that was a great post. :notworthy:

24

I think the whole problem in Taiwan is not that sex is everywhere, but that it’s implied everywhere. I have a theory that the countries with the weirdest sexual sub-cultures are either the most naturally authoritarian cultures or the most repressed (often with great overlap).

It’s such a sexually repressed society. You see it expressed everywhere, yet everyone is in denial about the reality of it and pretending that it’s anything but what it is. I still can’t reconcile the public sexual attitudes here with the billions of DVD shops, betelnut stands, love motels (which, supposedly, are for married couples) and general society-wide squeeky-voiced school girl fetish (especially on TV). I mean grow up. Also, as many/most foreign males can probably attest to, Taiwanese girls, despite putting on all the airs and graces of being “good girls” are some of the easiest lays on the planet. Yet if you said that to anyone here, they’d be outraged. The truth is though that it would still be harder to get laid in a Vegas strip joint or Amsterdam red light district if you had one hundred dollar bills falling out of your pockets than it would on your average night out in Taipei.

25

[quote=“braxtonhicks”]I don’t know if I have a problem with nudity on a beach. I’ve never been to a nude beach. I’ve never been shy about nursing a baby or toddler or preschooler at a beach, restaurant, church or museum. I think I’m really more uncomfortable about the condition of my breasts–they’re just not sexy when you have to roll them up into your bra.
[/quote]
Normally as a bloke I would say that I don’t have a problem with nudity however there are a few exceptions, public breastfeeding, maybe it’s just me but that feels like something that should be done in private not in front of everyone else, in certain places such as an expensive restaurant, the MRT and every other place where it is inconvenient for other people to walk away…
Also I do believe there should be a age rule about nudity and wearing certain pieces of clothing in public, I was having nightmares for a week when I walked up the stairs to a restaurant in Santa Barbara and the 50 something one in front of me where wearing white see-through pant without underwear :noway:
Othervise I agree with you

26

I think I probably feel roughly the same as you.

I still shower naked or walk naked in front of my girl (5 years, 3 months old) even though she noticed years ago that i’m different from her and mommy – that I have “a tail, except its in the front” (as she puts it) – and I do feel a little awkward if I notice that she’s examining my tail, but usually she doesn’t. Still, I don’t linger naked in front of her because, as I said, it does feel a little odd if I find her staring and I’d rather avoid that. On the other hand, my wife suggested a while ago that maybe I should no longer shower with her, but I don’t think that’s necessary. I very rarely do, but if I happen to be showering and my wife wants my girl to suddenly shower too, no problem, it only takes a moment and she usually pays no attention at all.

I don’t mind at all when I every few months find her studying pictures in our books depicting naked men or women or babies being born (anatomy or pregnancy books, not sex guides) and, in fact, I think that’s a good thing.

I wouldn’t mind at all if we saw naked men or women on national geographic with her, as we have once or twice.

I’m sure at least once we saw animals having fairly explicit sex on TV and I was relieved when the scene ended, because I didn’t want to make a fuss and cover her eyes or change the channels, which would indicate it’s wrong or bad or for grownups only or something other than perfectly natural and normal. Same for mere nudity – I don’t want to make a fuss about it because of the signal that would give her, but if they showed a giant explicit closeup of a penis on the TV screen for a prolonged period and I was sitting there with her watching it, I admit I’d definitely be embarassed.

As for adult sex on tv, if a couple is discretely getting it on under the covers on TV, no problem – she wouldn’t know what they’re doing and would only think they’re kissing and maybe massaging each other (she gets shy and embarassed and giggly just by kissing on tv). But if they showed people having explicit sex, I would have to explain it to her because she doesn’t know yet how that works. So, I guess it would lead to education, which is good (and I’m sure I’ll be just fine with explaining intercourse and menstruation and birth control and diseases and pregnancy, etc when the time comes), but I don’t want to have to suddenly give that lesson just because some boob on TV is fucking a hooker or something unsavory like that.

As for naked people walking down the street? Definitely no big deal at all. She and I would both laugh about it.

27

Wait a minute…

… youse’ve seen nakedness on the TV here in Taiwan?

Cos I haven’t. It’s always cut out of the movies. Even bums are pixelated in comedies. Is there some channel I don’t know about or something?

Geez. The Taiwanese TV version of that movie “Killing Me Softly” lasts for about 20 minutes.

28

Videos. Last weekend we rented Don’t Mess with Zohan and I was a little nervous not knowing how explicit it would get, but in the end they only showed Adam Sandler naked about 5 times with some object strategically placed to block key parts (no problem, we laughed), and Adam Sandler thrusting his hips in some woman’s face for about 30 minutes total and licking their ears for about 5 minutes total (no problem, she didn’t quite grasp that it was sexual and just found it goofy and silly, so we both laughed).

But as I said, it wouldn’t bother me at all if naked men and women walked into 7-11 when we were in there, with their floppy bits bouncing about for her to clearly see, because she already knows men and women have those parts, so it would be nothing crude or disgusting – just surprising and hilarious (and a good story to tell mommy about).

Even if the naked people in 7-11 had bizarre anatomy, like a man with two dicks or woman with three tits – so what, we’d discuss how bizarre that was and how most men only have one and most women only have two. Strange, but no harm done.

29

[quote=“braxtonhicks”]Oh my, I am quickly becoming one of the most conservative Forumosans! Who woulda thunk it several years ago when Maoman (or some other longtimer) asked “what are you wearing” and I truthfully replied “black lace thong” or some other stupid thing.

I don’t know if I have a problem with nudity on a beach. I’ve never been to a nude beach. I’ve never been shy about nursing a baby or toddler or preschooler at a beach, restaurant, church or museum. I think I’m really more uncomfortable about the condition of my breasts–they’re just not sexy when you have to roll them up into your bra.

I wonder if we change our ideas as our children get older and also depending on what sex our child(ren) are. I know it has for me. My boys are 12 and 17 and enjoy looking at girls while they’re out and about. I ask them to be respectful. “That’s someone’s sister. Think about how you’re going to feel when your buddy or some jerk on the MRT undresses your little sister with his eyes. Or your sister walks out in her bikini at the pool and all the guys turn to admire her from behind their sunglasses. Just be respectful.” I don’t mean stop. I mean don’t be lewd, rude or crude.

My conservative (by Forumosan standards) opinion is that all this sex in the media and at your neighborhood 7-11 counter desensitizes us as much as violent music/TV/music/ do. We do need to protect them up to a certain point and that point is different for every family, every individual. I try to be open with my kids as I can and answer their questions about sex and baby-making and how it’s possible that daddy’s erect penis fits into mommy’s little vagina and how mommy and daddy kiss when everyone’s asleep (those last two were actual questions that I handled :roflmao: pretty well I think) Some things they don’t need to see or know yet.

Am I really the only who feels this way?

How about the fathers of little girls? MT? Maoman?[/quote]

(All bolding is mine)

I too have become more conservative with age, but I think if your boys are 12 and 17, they may know more than you think (and/or more than they’re letting on). I’m guessing most 17-year-old boys are surfin’ porn when Mom and Dad are out.

Not sayin’ yours is; just sayin’ most are.

30

[quote=“irishstu”]Wait a minute…

… youse’ve seen nakedness on the TV here in Taiwan?

Cos I haven’t. It’s always cut out of the movies. Even bums are pixelated in comedies. Is there some channel I don’t know about or something?

Geez. The Taiwanese TV version of that movie “Killing Me Softly” lasts for about 20 minutes.[/quote]

You need to get one of those weird dongles in the night marklet that go into the back of the cable. They usually sell them right next to the place where you get the special glasses to unscramble the pixilation.

HG

31

That’d be next to the lube and cock rings at 7-11.

I kid you not.

32

[quote=“zender”](All bolding is mine)

I too have become more conservative with age, but I think if your boys are 12 and 17, they may know more than you think (and/or more than they’re letting on). I’m guessing most 17-year-old boys are surfin’ porn when Mom and Dad are out.

Not sayin’ yours is; just sayin’ most are.[/quote]

Ha! I’m not kidding myself, I’m sure the 17yo is exploring on the internet and has been for some time. The 12yo saw some a few years ago and was just a little traumatized.

What I meant was, I’ve answered their questions as they’ve asked them (I’ve also dodged a few until I thought they could handle the answer) and didn’t tell them more than I felt they needed to know at the time. They come back with more questions and you answer them until they’re satisfied and they probably fill in some of the blanks with friends (ex: my then-10yo was disgusted to learn exactly how a baby is made but it didn’t take him very long to figure out that it’s pleasurable and something to look forward to).

Fortigurn, your reply made my day :slight_smile:

MT, I appreciate your posts and don’t think there’s anything I could disagree with.

Lappy, breastfeeding should be done in private?? That’s a whole other can of worms. I don’t have time to go there just now.

33

[quote=“urodacus”]That’d be next to the lube and cock rings at 7-11.

I kid you not.[/quote]

I remember seeing a special display of battery powered leisure items on the rack next to the tills, where the kids’ sweets were. Next to some tacky magazines with pics of Jolin leaving Smell the Glove’s house, or Janet’s bra strap or some female politician with her jugs out or something dumb.

It’s not ‘shocking’, it’s just tacky and inappropriate for little ones. People want to buy that stuff, I have no problem with it. But it comes down to consideration for others; you want to buy stuff, no problem. You want strange guys buying that stuff in front of your small kids? Probably not. So make the leap, and cover it up a little, Taiwan.

Also thought it was a nice post, bhicks.

34

[quote=“GuyInTaiwan”]I think the whole problem in Taiwan is not that sex is everywhere, but that it’s implied everywhere. I have a theory that the countries with the weirdest sexual sub-cultures are either the most naturally authoritarian cultures or the most repressed (often with great overlap).

It’s such a sexually repressed society. You see it expressed everywhere, yet everyone is in denial about the reality of it and pretending that it’s anything but what it is. I still can’t reconcile the public sexual attitudes here with the billions of DVD shops, betelnut stands, love motels (which, supposedly, are for married couples) and general society-wide squeeky-voiced school girl fetish (especially on TV). I mean grow up. Also, as many/most foreign males can probably attest to, Taiwanese girls, despite putting on all the airs and graces of being “good girls” are some of the easiest lays on the planet. Yet if you said that to anyone here, they’d be outraged. The truth is though that it would still be harder to get laid in a Vegas strip joint or Amsterdam red light district if you had one hundred dollar bills falling out of your pockets than it would on your average night out in Taipei.[/quote]

Your post seems to contradict itself. Taiwanese are sexually repressed, but it is really easy to get laid. How is that sexually repressed? I’ve never seen such a place as Taipei in my life for people shagging the loving bejaysus out of each other. Even ugly people!

35

There’s no contradiction. Haven’t you ever had one of those conversations that goes like this?

Me/you/whomever: “Taiwanese people have a lot of sexual affairs/casual sex.”
Taiwanese person: “No they don’t. Taiwanese are pure.”
Me/you/whomever: “What’s with all the love motels then?”
Taiwanese person: “They’re for married couples.”
Me/you/whomever: “What about person X/you? They/you are in one now/have been to one.”
Taiwanese person: Silence.

It’s a serious WTF moment. I’ve even had one chick who was a bit of a pin cushion try to tell me this despite also having admitted that she had had casual sex several times at love motels. That was bizarre.

My point is that the repression comes from everyone playing this game where they pretend that if they don’t tell the truth, then it actually isn’t real. I know it’s probably a face thing, but that’s precisely my point.

36

There’s no contradiction. Haven’t you ever had one of those conversations that goes like this?

Me/you/whomever: “Taiwanese people have a lot of sexual affairs/casual sex.”
Taiwanese person: “No they don’t. Taiwanese are pure.”
Me/you/whomever: “What’s with all the love motels then?”
Taiwanese person: “They’re for married couples.”
Me/you/whomever: “What about person X/you? They/you are in one now/have been to one.”
Taiwanese person: Silence.

It’s a serious WTF moment. I’ve even had one chick who was a bit of a pin cushion try to tell me this despite also having admitted that she had had casual sex several times at love motels. That was bizarre.

My point is that the repression comes from everyone playing this game where they pretend that if they don’t tell the truth, then it actually isn’t real. I know it’s probably a face thing, but that’s precisely my point.[/quote]

Yeah I think that’s pretty much on the nail. People go on about traditional Asian values and then you get mags with like pictures of some guy licking a woman’s arse (kid you not) on the counter of Family Mart. Come on, you would not see that in the UK or OZ.

I don’t know why the thread turned into a discussion of nudity. I don’t have any problem with nudity in the home – and it wouldn’t especially bother me if my kids saw people at a nude beach. It’s sex that’s the issue. Not explicit sex, no, of course there’s none of that on the TV here, but no I don’t really want my 10 year old witnessing even soft bedroom scenes just yet. I want to tell him about sex and relationships in my own good time.

I don’t think it’d be any more appropriate for him to see a guy fondling a woman’s breasts, say, though clothing, or a woman holding out a pair of knickers to a guy, tantalizingly, than for him to see me do the same to my wife. My wife and I kiss in front of him, but I think we would draw the line there. Probably that is because we kiss him too, though obviously in a rather different way.

It seems people find me very prudish… I really don’t believe I am at all!

37

Actually I supect back when the UK had ‘victorian values’ there was a lot more prostitution, under age sex and so on. Victorian values was about not talking about the ‘dirty’ stuff, not about not doing it. Certainly from my experience it seems like the more sexually repressed a culture is on the surface the more sexualised it actually is.

For scholarly evidence I’d cite Catholic School Girls Rule by Red Hot Chillie Peppers. And Bristol Palin. And frankly, all the people I met in sexually liberated Sweden who were quite happy being single and hanging out with their buddies.

38

I’ve always been comfortable with nudity - I grew up that way, and wife and daughter are comfortable that way as well. I’m also ok with open attitudes towards sexuality, but not all attitudes are equal.

The sexploitation and commercialization of sex in Taiwan would be easier to take if they didn’t have such a repressed attitude towards the expression of passion. Kissing is taboo, but in every NEXT magazine there are graphic images of all kinds of explicit sexual behaviour. I fear for my daughter’s esteem when there are no healthy examples of female sexuality in the kazillion images and messages being hoisted on the masses. What is she going to think is healthy sexual behaviour? Posing knock-kneed and speaking in a fake squeaky voice in the hopes that it’ll attract the boy she fancies? God forbid.

I have a lot more to say on this subject, but I need more beer in me. Harumph!

39

Think we got a bit off topic. The original post was about the bar guy in Kenting luring kids in. The issue here is not how much sex, nudity, porn you can find in Taiwan, Europe, or elsewhere. Or, if that is a problem. All of this you can’t change. It is the way it is, no matter how many posts we publish on this forum.

Then, how much energy or effort is it to make sure your kids grow up without all this ? Not too much. Your kids don’t need any of this to become happy citizens. They will do fine (maybe even better) not being exposed. Let them grow up as kids.

I remember the following. Several years ago, my family and I arrived early morning in an European airport. We rented a car and once on our way, I switched on the radio. My kids, being able to understand the local language some 80 or 90 percent, were shocked when they hear the host of the radio station call random people and ask: “Any good fuck over the weekend ?”. It is much harder to explain that these things on the radio in Europe are normal and are supposed to show off how liberal the Europeans are - while in Taipei they can not and should not use this sort of language - than just avoiding they have to worry about this at their young age.

40

I think the topics are all interrelated, so let’s keep the ball rollin’, as it were.

Victorian Taiwan: nice one!