Should one learn Taiwanese / Minnan / Hokkien?

Language Taiwanese and Hakka Corner
121

[quote]But what really disturbs me, is that Taiwanese and Mandarin are so similar in their written form, that I don’t think it would make much sense to make Taiwanese an official language.
And also, if one starts to put more stress on equalitiy of languages, one shouldn’t neglect Hakka or the languages of the aborigines…
[/quote]

The point I have been making is that making Taiwanese an official language doesn’t have to be about writing anything in Taiwanese. The reason for making it an official langauge is so that people could speak Taiwanese (the first language of the majority of people in Taiwan) in official settings. Thus a ‘Taiwanese Language Law’ appropriate for Taiwan, would probably consist of something like the following:

  1. Taiwanese is recognised as an official language of Taiwan
  2. All government bodies and courts must accept any oral submissions made in Taiwan
  3. All government bodies and courts must have at least some of their personell able to communicate in Taiwanese

As any literate citizen of Taiwan can read Mandarin as easily (in fact probably more easily) than they can read Taiwanese, there would be no need whatsoever to translate written documents.

Matthew, it’s not about ‘dumping’ Mandarin in favour of Taiwanese. It’s about recognising both.

As far as Hakka and Aboriginal languages go, you could say '“Why not make them official languages too?”. It’s possible, but the fact is that the rationale for making Taiwanese an officla language - because it is the first language of the majority of citizens - is much stronger.

Finally I want to talk about the argument that Taiwanese can not be seen as a ‘language’ or given the recognition of an official language, becuase it is not a written language. That is ridiculous considering that no language starts as a written language and the vast majority of languages in the world use a writing system borrowed form another language. Writing is first a way of recording a language and then only later a means of expressing it. Was English in the middle ages not a language because it was only spoken? When people chose to write they did so in another language - Latin - and when they finally began to write in ‘English’ they used the letters of the other language to write in, with no standardisation for centuries. The thing is it’s quite simple to write Taiwanese, and there are many systems for doing so. Chosing a workable standard (as has been done in Hong Kong) would not be difficult (political considerations aside), and should not be a precondition for making Taiwanese an official language (although it would help).

Brian

122

I have asked my wife about this and she asked what was the big deal if it was official language or not, and exactly what would making it the or an offical language accomplish

She speaks Taiwanese to her parents and sister, her grandmother, and to her friends sometimes, but for official business etc, she is familair in doing this in Chinese. So she wonders then why so much effort and money would be spent on officializing something that is in reality used in everyday life already.

Ireland’s official language is Irish. I think it is something to do with giving us an identity. How many can fluently speak this? not many, I leanred it for 12 years ( or was it beaten into me along with the Protestants being evil :unamused: ) and can bearly speak it anymore, as it is a dead language and people prefer to use English.

It is important that different languages don’t die out, but at the same time preventing this by making languages official so they HAVE to be learned, isn’t right either. People speak the language they feel comfortable and the language they feel is appropriate at the time

123

Dear all,

Here are excerpts from three articles, and links to said articles, that I found interesting and that might have a little bearing on the current thread:

Globalization challenges Asian languages
By Rahul Goswami

SINGAPORE - A continent that contains a third of the world’s spoken codes, and yet one whose astonishing diversity of speech and written systems is being eroded by relentless globalization. That, in a nutshell, is the ethnolinguist’s lament for Asia.

“In Southeast Asia, the response to globalization is to acquire language skills, not in many languages, but in one, the English language, which is seen as the key to success in the globalized age,” said Dr Rujaya Abhakorn, lecturer in Southeast Asian history at Chiang Mai University in Thailand.

It is indeed English, which served the colonial British Empire and now drives the knowledge economy and the Internet, that is all too often seen as a Tyrannosaurus rex that voraciously gobbles up cultures and traditions.

“Efficiency and development, growth and human capital, are not tolerant of difference,” commented Professor Joseph Lo Bianco, director of the National Language and Literacy Institute of Australia. “Globalized modernization requires that knowledge is imparted in ways that are comparable across differences of setting, culture and language.”

Abhakorn and Lo Bianco were participants at a conference on language trends in Asia held this month by the National University of Singapore’s Asia Research Institute. The discussion focused on the sorts of globalization in Asia today, and whether or not the primary language of an economy is endangering other languages.

Generally, some participants pointed out, the endangerment of language is most serious in localities where globalization is most advanced and includes virtually all economic sectors.

Against such a background, the future of languages such as Hovongan, in north-central Kalimantan, Indonesia, and Sou, in the southern Laos province of Attapeu, is in peril - each is estimated to have about 1,000 speakers, and thus classified as being endangered by the United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization (UNESCO).

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Global_Economy/EG31Dj01.html

Whither our mother tongue?
By Han Tan Juan (2003-04-05)

124

taiwanese as a language is an integral part of the people there, so learning it is essential i think to truly understand the cultural and people. grante,d its not easy as it is not a written language, but we learn as we go. long live the repuplic!

125

Ok, there’s two threads going here.

The first, should one study Taiwanese? That seems to have been covered, for me at least, with a resounding yes. I’ll stretch this point out with if you’ve got working mandarin under your belt and you intend on lingering here and wish to truly integrate.

The other, which is confusing the shit out of me is, is Taiwanese an official language? Now I’ve seen legislators in the legggie Yuan jabbering away in Taiwanese and I’m damned sure evidence is submitted in the courts in Taiwanese. The transportaion code stipulates there are 4 languages that must be uttered: Mandarin; Taiwanese; Hakka; and English. Thus the long banter on inward and outward flights and the rail system too. Is it just the case that reality has failed to be documented in law?

Cheers.

HG

126

I have a feeling (someone can let me know if I’m wrong) that Taiwanese will be easier to learn then Mandarin. No need to think about written, pronunciation doesn’t seem so strict :stuck_out_tongue: and the grammar should be almost identical (right?)

I’m actually lookin forward to learning Taiwanese, even if it’s just so I can just listen when people switch languages after they know I speak some Mandarin (had that happen for the first time :shock: ).

127

Getting in late on this one. I’d like to bring one point to the attention of some people who apparently haven’t noticed it even after spending many years here. Taiwanese or holo or minnan or hick happens to be THE MOTHER TONGUE OF MANY PEOPLE WHO LIVE HERE. Making it not even the–which by any assesment based on morality and fair play it probably should be–but an… an official language is about as unremarkable as French being the official language of France. I laugh at people who say everything should be decided on the basis of its effects on the convenience of foreigners or “communication.” What a selfish and truly parochial outlook THAT really is. Obviously many people speak taiwanese anyway, making it an official language would be a political decision, and guess what, we don’t live in a vacuum. Look into some of the history of the political development of Taiwan, before I have to read more of this garbage and puke again.

ahem.

anyway why not learn some Taiwanese, it’s a lot of fun to speak around town if nothing else. if you’re going to stay here why not some pick up some, before Japanese for crying out loud, not a clue what you were going on about there Richard. lighten up, it’s not very surprising you can’t explain to people why their traditional friendly greeting is “unsuitable for the modern world,” geez. it’s hard to learn though! if you thought the tones in Mandarin were hard :slight_smile: the lucky bookstore in the shih da student center always had a good choice of taiwanese texts.

128

[quote=“miltownkid”]I have a feeling (someone can let me know if I’m wrong) that Taiwanese will be easier to learn then Mandarin. No need to think about written, pronunciation doesn’t seem so strict :stuck_out_tongue: and the grammar should be almost identical (right?)
[/quote]

The pronunciation is far more difficult than Mandarin. There are seven tones with tone sandhis on every one if there are two consecutive syllables. Some of the sounds are hard to distinguish as well especially ‘b’ and ‘p’ and ‘k’ and ‘g’. The grammar and usage are similar though. I’m finding it much more difficult than Mandarin.

129

i don’t think i will ever be able to pronounce this nasals…not to speak of being able to distinguish the different tones…
but then on the other hand i remember when i started to study chinese that in the beginning i was having troubles pronouncing or even hearing the difference between j and q or c and z…maybe there is hope

130

If I may…

The question of language selection has a practical side, and a not-so-practical side. Most of us have a fairly good idea of which languages we (or our businesses and governments) actually need to get by.

Personally, as a Taipei resident I have concluded that Mandarin is enough for my needs here. While Taiwanese would no doubt bring added color to my comprehension, I feel that I’ve gone more than halfway by using a language which almost everyone here can speak. (Of course there are always people who will not share any languages in common with me, but then that will always be a problem no matter what I study.) It is much the same reasoning that encourages Chinese/Taiwanese to greet Europid foreigners in English, on the expectation that even native German- and French-speakers will know it well enough.

At the national level, the various organs of government and business seem to be getting by just fine. Perhaps they ought to have more (or better) English services, but this is not something that would likely be affected by the formal selection of new official languages.

By the way, I am fairly confident that Taiwanese will not develop into a written form which the masses will accept. Yes, I know about the several systems, but any idiot can invent a writing system. The trick is getting other people to learn it and use it. (Think about the recent flack over Romanization. Now imagine the same people trying to put together a complete writing system. What do you suppose they will come up with? If it’s something remotely practical, then they are a whole lot more talented than I presently perceive them to be.)

Beyond practicality, there are more ephemeral issues of cultural heritage to consider. So…who’s culture are we talking about here? Who decides? And how much class time is this culture worth, viz. more practical subjects? I say this as someone who has learned about three very minor languages, purely out of love for them.

I think it is fruitful to compare the situation in Taiwan with that of Malaysia, which is now debating whether it was such a good idea to base their system on Bahasa Malaysia rather than English (as did Singapore, to great economic advantage). Certainly there is something to be said for preserving Malay language and culture (though perhaps a less nationalistic articulation would be preferable), but in the end, how much is it really worth to the people involved? For their kids? Sometimes a policy that is good for a language, is bad for a person.

131

Taiwanese is just fun. It gives you another option in coding and in understanding what it going on. For foreigners, I don’t think the issue should be so deeply involved with cultural heritage/political correctness/linguistic identity as it seems to have been made in this thread.

I am willing to bet that those who have claimed Taiwanese is “ugly” do not speak it. Most people who do not speak a language are more likely to report that the sounds of the language are “ugly” than those who do understand that language. Just human nature, I guess.

As for a writing system, Church Romanization works just fine and dandy, if Taiwan could get over the whole “we’re not China/we’re not missionaries/we’re not Western” thing. There IS the issue of the apostrophes, which people tend to leave out (but then they leave 'em out in Wade-Giles too).

I know I always get back to this, but to me it’s always the same problem. If you look at the “problem” of learning Taiwanese as a function of going to a language class and memorizing a book full of words, after sitting through a 10-hour pronunciation class, then yes, it will seem burdensome. So does Mandarin, under the same circumstances. If you can get some better instruction and have real chances to use the language and “pick it up” (aka acquisition, instead of “learning about” it), you’ll find it’s much easier. Goes for any language, really. And if you already know Mandarin to an intermediate level, Taiwanese will be easier as much of the grammar is similar.

132

The Presbyterian system works just fine, I’m sure…but does anybody publish a newspaper in it? If I sell betel nuts, how many people will understand a sign written in it? (Of course, the sight of my beautiful body in a bikini should be advertisement enough!) That’s why I say the system isn’t ready for prime time.

Iron Lady, do you think the National Phonetic Alphabet (bo po mo fo) could conceivably be used to represent Taiwanese? Does it have enough sounds? (Except tone marks–I know they need more of those.) It seems to me that more Taiwanese would be able to read a system based on that, if one could be made to work. And it would be an effective way to distance the language visually from Chinese as used in China. (Of course using it on computers would be a headache.)

Back to the original question, one might learn Taiwanese out of practical considerations (in which case you probably know if you need it), or out of love for the language (in which case you probably know if you love it). Either way, and if you can balance this against all the other things you have to do in your life, then go for it!

133

On one of the sites mentioned somewhere in this thread I read that someone has invented a modified bopomofo (zhuyin) to reperesent Taiwanese. I think quite possibly that it might be the way to go in Taiwan (from the practical aspect of inventing a writing system that would actually fly), but even better would be a modified bopomo for phonetic learning, then characters for most of the writing, and bopomo for words where charcters aren;'t available (so it owuld look a little like Japanese does with it’s mix of characters and hiragana/katakana).

Bopomo is already used sometimes to write Taiwanese characters, the most common example proabbly being the use of the zhuyin equivalents of the pinyin c, wu and a (cua) for ‘tswa bing’ (usually written with the charatcer

134

There is already a perfectly OK system to represent Taiwanese in Chinese characters. Some people who use it use the occasional word in CR (Church Romanization) thrown in to avoid “strange” characters; others do it 100% in characters.

I was once on an airplane reading something written this way and the Chinese guy next to me was having a fit trying to figure out why he couldn’t quite read it. He finally asked what it was.

Either way, if we are talking about representing specifically Minnan in written form, then we are talking about a visual method of representing the sounds and syntax of Minnan. Since this is far removed from Classical Chinese, there’s no reason not to go with Romanization. A look at a truly alphabetic Pinyin dictionary will reveal that there are really very few true homophones, and no one who already speaks the language would have a problem reading text in that system, assuming that they were skilled in the Romanization system used.

Of course, our own custom Tonally Orthographic Minnan is the way to go…all the thrills and chills of CR but none of those annoying tone marks!! Actually it was a system we developed to allow us to easily send SMS messages on cell phones in Taiwanese…too much free time, obviously! Unfortunately, due to the conversions involved, TOM won’t be available in the first release of the Taiwanese<>English dictionary for Palm OS (Try not to cry too much, guys. :wink: ) which should be out in early September with luck.

Terry

135

The point I was responding to, was that Taiwan needs to adopt a written standard for Taiwanese that is going to be accepted and used. For that to work, it’s going to have to be either all charatcers, a mix of characters and somethign like zhuyin fuhao, or, at a scrape, characters with romanisation. It’s got nothing to do with which system is ‘best’.

Brian

136

There’s an excellent system created by this Dentist/Choir Conductor (man of many talents) from Taichung. The only thing available right now is a short introductory book in Chinese: 50 分鐘學會精確的陳殿冠台語注音. My wife read it aloud while I was driving. It took about an hour to get the system down. It’s so much easier than church romanization. I tried learning Taiwanese on my own before, but could never figure out some of the sounds and tones. This system explains everything relative to Mandarin and zhuyin and (for me at least) made it a lot more understandable. Supposedly it’s being supported by the government and there will be more learning materials making use of the system in the future, but for moment there’s nothing. It was worth it for me, though, just to get started.

137

Not true in all areas. Where I am, there is very very little Taiwanese spoken. What you hear on the streets and in the shops in Hakkanese (and after a decade, I’m starting to understand a little). Down in the coastal areas, Chunan being the closest, you are right, Taiwanese is quite common. However, up here in the boonies, almost no one speaks it. (boonies being about half way between Toufen and Miao Li off of (I think) County Road 13 :smiley:.

138

[quote=“Sir Donald Bradman”]The point I was responding to, was that Taiwan needs to adopt a written standard for Taiwanese that is going to be accepted and used. For that to work, it’s going to have to be either all charatcers, a mix of characters and somethign like zhuyin fuhao, or, at a scrape, characters with romanisation. It’s got nothing to do with which system is ‘best’.

Brian[/quote]

:laughing: There isn’t even a written standard that is used for how to romanize Mandarin words…I think this might be tough :wink: :smiley:.

139

[quote=“acearle”][quote=“Sir Donald Bradman”]The point I was responding to, was that Taiwan needs to adopt a written standard for Taiwanese that is going to be accepted and used. For that to work, it’s going to have to be either all charatcers, a mix of characters and somethign like zhuyin fuhao, or, at a scrape, characters with romanisation. It’s got nothing to do with which system is ‘best’.

Brian[/quote]

:laughing: There isn’t even a written standard that is used for how to romanize Mandarin words…I think this might be tough :wink: :smiley:.[/quote]

Did I miss something? I thought Hanyu Pinyin was the internationally recognized UN standard for romanizing Mandarin Chinese.

140

[quote=“Poagao”][quote=“acearle”][quote=“Sir Donald Bradman”]The point I was responding to, was that Taiwan needs to adopt a written standard for Taiwanese that is going to be accepted and used. For that to work, it’s going to have to be either all charatcers, a mix of characters and somethign like zhuyin fuhao, or, at a scrape, characters with romanisation. It’s got nothing to do with which system is ‘best’.

Brian[/quote]

:laughing: There isn’t even a written standard that is used for how to romanize Mandarin words…I think this might be tough :wink: :smiley:.[/quote]

Did I miss something? I thought Hanyu Pinyin was the internationally recognized UN standard for romanizing Mandarin Chinese.[/quote]

Sure it is the international standard, but is it used consistently and universally here, that was my point somewhat facetious point :laughing:. Not that it matters a whit, but in one particular streach of road, I recall seeing Chungli romanized 3 different ways.