[color=#008040]Mod note: title altered to include Minnan / Hokkien, so that searches can find relevant threads; the word ‘Taiwanese’ is too common and is ignored by the search function. --DB[/color]
The longer I study Chinese and the better I get to know Taiwan, the more I feel Taiwan and Switzerland are very similar politically and culturally.
I’ve often come across the question, if one should study Taiwanese, if one lives in Taiwan or if Mandarin only would be OK too. Here is what I think…
If one lives in a foreign country, one should definitely learn the local language. As for Taiwan, it’s offical language is Mandarin Chinese, not Taiwanese. For this reason I think, it is sufficient, if one “only” learns Chinese. If Taiwanese was an offical language besides Chinese, then Hakka and all the languages of the aborigines would or should be too. But there is no need to study ALL the offical languages of a country.
Why do I think like this? Because it’s the same situation in Switzerland. One of Switzerlands offical languages is German, but not Swiss German (in case somebody doesn’t know, even though German is the offical language, it is not spoken in daily live. Swiss people speaks Swiss German, exept for special situations such as in class or in contact with foreigners is German spoken. Swiss German differs from German in a way Taiwanese differs from Mandarin).
Swiss people would expect foreigners to learn German, but never ever would expect anybody to learn Swiss German and nobody ever expects anybody to speak all the 4 offical languages of Switzerland. There are only a very few Swiss people who speak all the 4 offical languages!
This does not mean, that one wouldn’t be surprised and flattered if foreigners really do make the effort to learn Swiss German or Taiwanese.
For you to equate Taiwanese with Hakka in Taiwan is a bit of an oversimplification. Taiwanese, or Minan Hua, is spoken in Fujian Province in China, it can also be found in Malaysia and Singapore. Perhaps the biggest problem with your argument is that outside of the North Taiwanese is the predominant language among locals, friends, and families. This is not so for Hakka, as there are more Hakka dialects, and it is not as statiscally significant as Taiwanese.
My point is not that you have to learn Taiwanese, but if you are going to stay for a long while picking it up would definitely help. If everything here wasn’t always so political I’m sure that Taiwanese would already be an official language. It’s spoken by enough people.
[quote=“mfaass”]For you to equate Taiwanese with Hakka in Taiwan is a bit of an oversimplification. Taiwanese, or Minan Hua, is spoken in Fujian Province in China, it can also be found in Malaysia and Singapore. Perhaps the biggest problem with your argument is that outside of the North Taiwanese is the predominant language among locals, friends, and families. This is not so for Hakka, as there are more Hakka dialects, and it is not as statiscally significant as Taiwanese.
My point is not that you have to learn Taiwanese, but if you are going to stay for a long while picking it up would definitely help. If everything here wasn’t always so political I’m sure that Taiwanese would already be an official language. It’s spoken by enough people.[/quote]
Taiwanese as the official language would be THE dumbest decision ever made.
Not the official language, an official langauge. I totally agree. Someone brought up Switzerland, they have like a quarter of Taiwan’s population but 4 official languages. Ok, speakers there are divided more evenly among geographic regions. Contrast India, where each state has an official language, and so English is used as a de facto communication tool.
I think having 2 official languages would be a very shrewd political move for Taiwan, not strong enough to provoke belligerence from the PRC, but a very clear statement of identity.
I think studying Taiwanese is worthwhile if only because it is commonly used in the public realm with the perception (right or wrong) being that while some Taiwanese can’t speak it, they will understand it. A perfect example of what I’m fumbling for is political debates. I for one find it quite frustrating that while I can tune into the TV and follow debates I’m invariably stumped by some twat breaking in with grunted Taiwanese.
[quote]Taiwanese as the official language would be THE dumbest decision ever made.[/quote]But that won’t stop it being made. Taiwanese is about as useful in the world as Welsh, but at least Welsh can be written down. Makes me wonder sometimes if Taiwan is wanting to be seperate from China, or the rest of the world ?
[quote]but a very clear statement of identity.[/quote] Why emphasize differences all the time?
So what language are we supposed to learn ? Seems I wasted my feeble attempts to learn Mandarin, because no-one else seems to speak it. And Chen Shui-Bian did try to make foreigners use Taiwanese names for places when he was mayor.
Taiwanese is a HICK language, just as Afrikaans is in South Africa. Generally, people who speak Taiwanese tend to be xenophobic, judging by the DPP’s support base.
Imagine the kids going to Mandarin bushibans, if Chen had his way, just to get a job on the Mainland. Is it not enough that the Taiwanese spend a fortune trying to learn English?
The worst case scenario will see Taiwan separated from its two biggest trading partners by language.
[quote=“Huang Guang Chen”]mesheel
I for one find it quite frustrating that while I can tune into the TV and follow debates I’m invariably stumped by some twat breaking in with grunted Taiwanese.
HG[/quote]
HGC: You are usually a thoughftful poster. But why do you feel that you have to echo outdated prejudices against Taiwanese speakers?
I personally think Taiwanese sounds great. It’s got soul.
Not really casting stones at anyone but myself really. The comment should be seen as a reflection of the frustration I feel when this happens. Oh, and the pint I’ve just had over lunch.
There is less and less space for “tribalism” today. Increasing the importance of Taiwanese will be a step back for Taiwan.
Besides, did Chen not say the other day, atop 101, that he wants Taiwan to move forward?
A fat lot of good would it be for Taiwan having signs (oh shit there’s no written language) in Taiwanese and other paraphenallia to further confuse visitors.
Taiwanese is a yokel lingo. It should, in the interests of everyone, stay so.
OK I can understand that. I find Taiwanese pretty frustrating too. Especially speaking. I’ve notices that people are much pickier about tones and syntax than they were when I was learning Mandarin. I get corrected all the time, which never used to happen with Mandarin.
“a HICK language”? Would you care to define what you mean by hick language?
Alleycat, at least 80% of people in Taiwan speak Taiwanese. Are you suggesting they are all xenophobic.
But that won’t stop it being made. Taiwanese is about as useful in the world as Welsh, but at least Welsh can be written down. Makes me wonder sometimes if Taiwan is wanting to be separate from China, or the rest of the world ? [/quote]
Taiwanese (or Minnan as Juba would like us to more accurately refer to it) is a lot more useful than Welsh. It is spoken by about 50 million people around the world and is an important language in Taiwan, China (Fujian Province), Malaysia and Singapore plus other overseas Chinese communities in Southeast Asia.
I agree. Even if you never learn to speak the language, just appreciate the sound of it. It is quite beautiful.
The question at the beginning of this thread was “Should one learn Taiwanese?” Well, I don’t think one should have to do anything. You don’t have to learn Mandarin if you don’t want to, but learning it will enhance your experience of living in Taiwan. The same goes for Taiwanese. If you have the interest and the inclination to study it then do it.
Wix, Taiwanese is not as important as you say it is: In Malaysia and Singapore, English is the de facto language; and there are many dialects used in China though Mandarin still takes precedence. Without it, one is in all probability considered iliterate.
Hicks are unsophisticated, which means they rarely see beyond there noses. Witness the DPP’s strategy in the last mayoral election: “Vote for us, and we’ll squash all your traffic fines.”
Taiwanese is far, far from being a beautiful language. It’s goggly goggly!
There is less and less space for “tribalism” today. Increasing the importance of Taiwanese will be a step back for Taiwan.[/quote]
The world needs diversity. Biodiversity, geodiversity, linguistic diversity, cultural diversity. Diversity=Health.
There are a number of ways of writing Taiwanese. It is just that there is no agreed standard and most people who speak the language don’t know how to write it.
“yokel lingo”, “HICK language” What do you mean by these terms? It seems you are just displaying your prejudice against anyone who doesn’t conform to a narrow set of standards.
It is the mother tongue of 50 million people. Even it was the mother tongue of just 50 people that wouldn’t make it any less important to those who spoke it. Do you believe that people should just abandon their mother tongue for the sake of convenience or whatever.
I think much of what you have written in this thread displays a fair lack of sophistication.
By Taiwan choosing Taiwanese as its official language it will be telling the world that they’re not intend on communicating with anyone, but that they’re only intend on talking with themselves.
Mandarin is of similar importance to the well-being of Taiwan as English. Do you not, therefore, think that a further hurdle between Beijing and Taipei will be counterproductive?
Diversity is fine. Taiwanese, however, is too emblazened with clanism to warrant any official recognition.
Add one more point. It seems to me that Taiwanese, and I admit to knowing only a smattering of words and phrases, is a far more interesting language tha Mandarin. Personally, I find modern Mandarin quite boring.
Wu Bai doing Taiwanese or Mandarin seems a fair analogy.
