Should Taiwanese learn pinyin?

I didn’t know what is pinyin before the arguement between Taipei government and MOE started.
My friends said pinyin is like bopomo that’s just the process of learning Chinese.
We read and write the characters in the end,no matter it is traditional or simplified characters.
Pinyin is easy for foreigners to read and write,too.

So except bopomo,should we learn pinyin?

If you want to be able to use the English keyboard to type Chinese, Hanyu Pinyin is the easiest way.

If you want a dictionary in which you can look up words very quickly based on how they sound, without memorizing the bopomofo order, then if you learn Hanyu Pinyin you can use DeFrancis’s pinyin-based ABC dictionaries.

If you want to be able to write the sounds of Chinese in a way that the majority of foreigners worldwide learning Chinese can understand, for example if you have a language exchange partner here, then yes, Pinyin is the best, but it depends on which system the particular foreigner knows. Most globally learn Hanyu Pinyin, but some who’ve only studied here in Taiwan only know bopomofo. Nobody likes or learns Tongyong Pinyin, so ignore that awful system.

If you want to be able to write the sounds of Chinese on street signs and buildings so that most foreigners who’ve studied some Chinese can read them, then HANYU Pinyin is the best way, yes.

If you don’t have any of these goals, then Pinyin is not so important for Taiwanese people.

Hell, yes. And Pinyin of course means Hanyu Pinyin. Accept no substitutes.

is something else from the curriculum going to get tossed out to find time for this, or is the plan just to add another hour or so to the 10 hour school day, and a few more tests?

(not being sarcastic)

Yes, the Taiwanese should learn and use Hanyu Pinyin (and no other pinyin). The mainland Chinese know it, and it’s a part of the standard school curriculum for local children. There’s no reason the Taiwanese shouldn’t also be able to learn and use it. It would be a great step toward cleaning up the jumbled mess of spelling systems existing in Taiwan.

Outside of Taiwan, practically everyone who studies Mandarin nowadays learns and uses Hanyu Pinyin. It’s an international standard: ISO-7098:1991.

Avoid Tongyong Pinyin like the plague. It is a tool of the Devil. :smiling_imp:

[quote]If you want to be able to use the English keyboard to type Chinese, Pinyin is the easiest way.
If you want a dictionary in which you can look up words very quickly based on how they sound, without memorizing the bopomofo order, then you can use DeFrancis’s Pinyin-based ABC dictionaries.[/quote]
I doubt it is the reason that can make Taiwanese to learn pinyin.Unless we are in a foreign country not using ourselves computer.Otherwise,the keyboard with bopomo is not hard to get.
And the dictionary thing is same ,too.

[quote]If you want to be able to write the sounds of Chinese on street signs and buildings so that most foreigners who’ve studied some Chinese can read them, then Pinyin is the best way, yes.
[/quote]
I agree this.It is the reason to learn pinyin for me.

Wo bu guan zheng zhi ren wu zhen me shuo,I really agree Taiwanese should learn pinyin.
But because I have learnt bopomo so it is easy to learn pinyin for me.
It took me 20 mins to learn what pinyin is .

Pinyin I mean here is Hanyu pinyin.Tongyong pinyin is more confusing .

dui. pinyin zhende hen rongyi. zai dalu(mainland) ruguo wo wangji hanzi wo keyi xie pinyin. dalu ren dou mingbai pinyin. hao fangbian.

HAIYOU- ruguo zhongguyo ren zhidao pinyin tamen zhidao yingyu de zimu.

zai taiwan, xiao pengyou men shou “wo bu hui nian yingwen. shi waiguode”. zai dalu- meiyou banfa.

Taiwan de xiao pengyou zhidao yingwen zimu,dan shi bu hui nian pinyin.
jiu shi yin wei wo men ke yi ren zhongwen zi ,suo yi dang wo wen xue le bopomo hou,jiu mei you xue pinyin de xiang fa le.

[quote=“wisher”][quote]If you want to be able to use the English keyboard to type Chinese, Pinyin is the easiest way.
If you want a dictionary in which you can look up words very quickly based on how they sound, without memorizing the bopomofo order, then you can use DeFrancis’s Pinyin-based ABC dictionaries.[/quote]
I doubt it is the reason that can make Taiwanese to learn Pinyin.Unless we are in a foreign country not using ourselves computer.Otherwise,the keyboard with bopomo is not hard to get.
And the dictionary thing is same ,too.[/quote]

No no, you don’t understand. If you are using the alphabet to type words, you have to learn that under your right index finger is J, under your left middle finger is D, etc. If you type using Hanyu Pinyin, the j sound in 機 ji1 is in the same place, under the same finger. You don’t have to look, or think. But if you type using bopomofo, you have to learn a different key to type that sound, and maybe you’ll even have to look at the keyboard at first. Having to learn only one time lets you touch type very quickly without looking at the keyboard. It’s a far better way to type.

The same goes for bopomofo dictionaries – you have to memorize the order of the bopomofo series well in order to use it quickly. But if you have learned your abc’s well, you’ll already know the order of those, and you can look things up very quickly. Plus you’ll have access to some very good quality references that are pinyin-ordered.

And by pinyin, I of course ONLY mean Hanyu Pinyin. Don’t be misled into thinking that Tongyong pinyin is the same thing – it’s not; it’s a horrible new monster that will end up buried in Taiwan’s graveyard of stupid ideas.

Unless you’re French, or German, or Eastern European, or Spanish, or Portugese, or Canadian (just the francophones), or Mexican, or Venezuelan, or …

It also presupposes one knows English first. Nevertheless, having already known bopomofo, it took me a quick scan of a romanization table to learn Pinyin. So it’s not difficult to pick up after the fact.

Unless you’re French, or German, or Eastern European, or Spanish, or Portugese, or Canadian (just the francophones), or Mexican, or Venezuelan, or …

It also presupposes one knows English first. Nevertheless, having already known bopomofo, it took me a quick scan of a romanization table to learn Pinyin. So it’s not difficult to pick up after the fact.[/quote]

No, where the j is on the keyboard, the j which is used to type ji, is not related to what your native language is. :laughing: I know what you’re getting at but that’s a different issue (whether or not Hanyu Pinyin’s use of the j for that sound is intuitive based on one’s mother tongue). But my comments are based on the assumption that one knows HYPY and wishes to type it, in which case no additional learning of the keyboard is needed.

It’s nearly impossible to find a keyboard in Taiwan without zhuyin on it.

I probably love the DeFrancis dictionary as much as you do, but its unique word order is a lot more useful to foreigners than to native speakers. And besides, I don’t think they have a proper traditional Chinese version (I have a dog-eared copy of the original version which is all in simplified, and I believe the extended version only has traditional in parenthesis.)

[quote]If you want to be able to write the sounds of Chinese in a way that the majority of foreigners worldwide learning Chinese can understand, for example if you have a language exchange partner here, then yes, Pinyin is the best, but it depends on which system the particular foreigner knows. Most globally learn Hanyu Pinyin, but some who’ve only studied here in Taiwan only know bopomofo. Nobody likes or learns Tongyong Pinyin, so ignore that awful system.

If you want to be able to write the sounds of Chinese on street signs and buildings so that most foreigners who’ve studied some Chinese can read them, then HANYU Pinyin is the best way, yes. [/quote]

I agree with you there.

And with the possible exception of road signs, etc., I don’t believe Taiwanese have any of these goals. So while it would behoove city planners, academics, and CSL teachers to learn HP, I can’t think of single possible reason why the average Taiwanese person should learn HP.

D’oh! Never mind then… :blush:

DB, I feel a lot of your pros on learning Pinyin is from a non-native speaker’s point of view, which is valid enough. But the title of the thread being whether Taiwanese should learn Pinyin or not, some of the points do not apply. Specifically, because children in Taiwan grow up learning BPMF and already know their order and the keyboard layout, how much would they gain by learning Pinyin.

For sure it isn’t to type faster as BPMF is on average less keystrokes per character. There are also dictionaries ordered by BPMF already. I think the main benefit is to interface with non-Mandarin speakers. If you’re a local who only interacts with locals, who cares?

However, since it’s easy enough to learn, it wouldn’t hurt sticking a couple of hours of Pinyin in the curriculum at the end of elementary school, or something like that. Of course, if you’re talking about the wholesale replacement of BPMF by Pinyin, that’s another story altogether.

[quote=“Dragonbones”][quote=“wisher”][quote]If you want to be able to use the English keyboard to type Chinese, Pinyin is the easiest way.
If you want a dictionary in which you can look up words very quickly based on how they sound, without memorizing the bopomofo order, then you can use DeFrancis’s Pinyin-based ABC dictionaries.[/quote]
I doubt it is the reason that can make Taiwanese to learn Pinyin.Unless we are in a foreign country not using ourselves computer.Otherwise,the keyboard with bopomo is not hard to get.
And the dictionary thing is same ,too.[/quote]

No no, you don’t understand. If you are using the alphabet to type words, you have to learn that under your right index finger is J, under your left middle finger is D, etc. If you type using Hanyu Pinyin, the j sound in 機 ji1 is in the same place, under the same finger. You don’t have to look, or think. But if you type using bopomofo, you have to learn a different key to type that sound, and maybe you’ll even have to look at the keyboard at first. Having to learn only one time lets you touch type very quickly without looking at the keyboard. It’s a far better way to type. The same goes for bopomofo dictionaries – you have to memorize the order of the bopomofo series well in order to use it quickly. But if you have learned your abc’s well, you’ll already know the order of those, and you can look things up very quickly. Plus you’ll have access to some very good quality references that are Pinyin-ordered.

And by Pinyin, I of course ONLY mean Hanyu Pinyin. Don’t be misled into thinking that Tongyong Pinyin is the same thing – it’s not; it’s a horrible new monster that will end up buried in Taiwan’s graveyard of stupid ideas.[/quote]

Well,I don’t understand what you mean. :blush:
I never tried the English keyboard to type Chinese.
Can you give me an example?
Thanks. :notworthy:

Btw,all computer set up the Chinese system and with zhuyin keyboard.
It is a bit difficult for me to know how convenient to use English keyboard.

Well, that’s why I answered in the form I did, “if” you have x goal, then…
I didn’t give an overall assessment of whether most Taiwanese should learn Pinyin. Given the current environment, it’s probably not a reasonable goal for the average local.

Yes, Taiwanese definitely should be learn Pinyin and be able to use it in a variety of contexts.

As far as typing Chinese on a computer or looking up words in a dictionary goes then Taiwanese manage perfectly well without knowing Pinyin. That is not why I think they should learn it. The ability to read and write names and addresses in Pinyin should be considered a basic component of literacy. It is essential for international communication.

Pinyin has nothing to do with English. It utilises the Roman alphabet which is almost universal – most countries in the world use or learn it in some way, even if they don’t use it to write their own language.

And Pinyin is not really that difficult. For Taiwanese who already know one phonetic system (Zhuyin Fuhao aka bo po mo fo) it is not at all difficult to learn Pinyin. The problem stems from years of misinformation about Pinyin (and romanisation generally), the confusion resulting from the use of various systems of romanisation and an education system that is resistant to (or reluctant to) change.

Taiwanese in general have no clue as to how they are supposed to write Chinese using the ABC. I think it should be mandatory to learn Hanyu Pinyin in school because of the number of people using it outside Taiwan. Just make it part of English teaching and students will find it much easier to communicate with foreigners in Taiwan and abroad.

I’m not so sure about that (speed, that is, not keystrokes). As a matter of fact, I’m inclined to believe that the opposite is true. Touch typing doesn’t work nearly so well for most people once their fingers have to go more than one row of keys above the fingers’ home positions. Because zhuyin has many more zimu than a QWERTY keyboard has Roman letters, people wishing to type using zhuyin have to stretch up to the top row of number keys extremely often, resulting in losses in accuracy and speed.

I wonder if there are studies on this.

There are also a great many more Pinyin-based input methods than zhuyin ones, though that doesn’t have to be so.

I used to think that Taiwanese did just fine with zhuyin, so why change? But I’ve since come to the opinion that students and people in general here would do much better with just two scripts (Hanzi and the Roman alphabet for English and Pinyin) than three (Hanzi, the Roman alphabet, and zhuyin).

OTOH, I know there’s a lot of worry in some circles in China that studying written English “too soon” is going to mess up children’s ability with Pinyin – not that a high level of Pinyin is ever taught there. :frowning: