"Shouting at people" English. Would it work?

I’m getting to be at least half-serious with this question, so here it is. I hope someone can explain to me why it’s a bad idea.

I’ve heard of schools that yell at kids, and force them to shout back. Sounds awful. I’m sure there must be a better way, but don’t teach kids so it’s not really my problem.

I teach adults, and there is a certain class of student that I’ve reached the end of my patience with. It’s not universal, so let’s talk about the others first.

Some people go through their school years feeling motivated and rewarded by their English experiences. By the time they reach university age they’re pretty much at a level where they don’t need formal instruction, although they sometimes show up in classes looking for chances to keep practising. They’re not the problem.

Others, at some point in life but not necessarily in school, just decide that they want to learn English. The important thing is that they really want to. They watch movies, read, even listen ICRT and still manage to do pretty well. I’ve met taxi drivers that can hold a decent conversation, waitresses, random strangers, and a few of the better local teachers of English have little or no formal education in the language. They’re good at it because they genuinely want to be, and they’re good at it, genuinely. Great.

Then there are the people who attend English classes. It’s not true to say they really study. They’re locked into bad habits, focus on the answer to the question instead of producing language (ie one-word answers), expect to be entertained, don’t do homework, gleefully write down new words they don’t have a hope of ever using properly, and are basically wasting yours and their time.

I’ve tried teaching the book, and they complain it’s boring because they know it all already, which is true. I’ve tried activities and not corrected them, to encourage them to overcome their shyness, focusing on fluency. I’ve tried, with different groups over several years, gently correcting the most common errors only. I’ve corrected errors retrospectively as feedback. I’ve tried stopping them and reminding them of what they know as soon as errors appear. I’ve tried insisting on perfection. I’ve tried focusing on ‘the task’, whatever it might be, and if they’re motivated to complete the task they forget about the language they’re supposed to be ‘activating’. None of it makes the slightest bit of fucking difference, not even if the correct sentence pattern is written on the board in front of them.

These people are just not actively processing. They’re not thinking or trying to correct their fundamental problems. They’re just doing what they’ve always done and expecting a different result. And usually they don’t really want to be there. They’re there “because my English is not very well” and have only the vaguest of goals. Exam-prep classes are a bit better, but most students are aiming too high. They’re trying to write academic English, but still make basic errors.

Here’s a conversation last night, from an intermediate class. The book is, in theory, well within the capabilities of the students.

Student 1: When you go to there?
Teacher: (coughs, taps board gently, pointing at the model)
S1: Sorry! When did you go to there?
S2: I go there…
T: I…
S2: I went there at 3pm
S1: Why you went to there?
T: :unamused:
S1: Why did you went there?
T: Look at the board.
S1: … Why… did… you… go?
T: :slight_smile:
S1: there?
S2: I go there …
T: :taz:

I have 13-yr old “low ability” students who don’t go to buxibans but can manage “teacher, when you come Taiwan?” Is it so unreasonable to expect someone who has been through many more years of formal study and is now in their twenties to be able to do just a little bit better? Ten years of English education, movies in English, classes 2-3 nights a week for recent months, and an example on the board in front of you, and this is the best you can do? What is being done wrong here?

I’ve finally, sadly, concluded that the problem is nothing to do with methodology, material, teaching style, or anything that the school or teacher have any control over. The problem lies with whatever it is they do to young Taiwanese people during senior high school that prevents them from ever learning anything again. It’s like some part of the brain is deactivated in order to prevent them ever learning anything that might rock the boat.

(A friend of mine told me last night about what a great fun class she just had, what an interesting discussion it was, etc. So what? I have fun too. I have my students do all sorts of cool stuff, but it’s always in broken English. They don’t really focus on learning or improving. They’re just having fun.)

So, would this work?

The class runs on the premise that everybody is a beginner, nobody knows anything worth knowing. In fact, you have to unlearn your habits, which will be done in the only way you understand: by forcing/stressing you. You will be drilled with the correct sentence patterns. You will not be shy. You will shout your answers. Any mistakes will be corrected immediately, loudly, and publicly. You will be punished for getting it wrong. The class will not pretend to be fun or enlightened. You’re there to do as you’re told. The teacher is not your friend. He despises you for your failure, and will continue to despise you until you change your ways.

Boot camp English. Sounds awful. But being nice to people doesn’t seem to help them, it just amuses them.

(OK, maybe they’re not really there with the expectation of improving. Most seem to have no idea what they really want, and it’s not fair to give them a hard time for the inadequacies of the system they grew up in. But these classes are becoming excruciating.)

Even if it would work, would anybody buy such a class?

I heard of some boot camp like cram school years ago. Apparenty quite tough. I was told a parent also had to watch the class. I was also told it was quite effective, but I never ascertained if this meant in getting the kids to reproduce the drills, or to develop an understanding of the language that allowed them to manipulate it to their needs.

HG

‘Boot camp’ style is 1960s audio-lingual bollocks, generally speaking. But, drilling has its’ place. Do it often, loudly and with confidence, but for short periods of time. Do it with the whole group and individually. Call it a ‘pronunciation activity’. Make them put their pencils down when they do it. Explain the concept productive and receptive skills to them and that you are not patronising them by asking them to do the simple past again, you know they understand, but you want them to be able to sound polished and accurate.

And remember that education is for people who are uneducated. So it still probably won’t work. Embrace that!

[quote=“Loretta”]Here’s a conversation last night, from an intermediate class. The book is, in theory, well within the capabilities of the students.

Student 1: When you go to there?
Teacher: (coughs, taps board gently, pointing at the model)
S1: Sorry! When did you go to there?
S2: I go there…
T: I…
S2: I went there at 3pm
S1: Why you went to there?
T: :unamused:
S1: Why did you went there?
T: Look at the board.
S1: … Why… did… you… go?
T: :slight_smile:
S1: there?
S2: I go there …
T: :taz:[/quote]

I feel your pain.

I couldn’t agree more.

Some people need boot camp. I think it’s a good idea.

I am not in the teaching business but I have a theory about something that was mentioned:
Watching English movies doesn’t help as long as they have subtitles, because most people will read those instead of listening to / focusing on the spoken language.

[quote=“Buttercup”]‘Boot camp’ style is 1960s audio-lingual bollocks, generally speaking. But, drilling has its’ place. Do it often, loudly and with confidence, but for short periods of time. Do it with the whole group and individually. Call it a ‘pronunciation activity’. Make them put their pencils down when they do it. Explain the concept productive and receptive skills to them and that you are not patronising them by asking them to do the simple past again, you know they understand, but you want them to be able to sound polished and accurate.

And remember that education is for people who are uneducated. So it still probably won’t work. Embrace that![/quote]

Nah, you’re talking about education. These people have had ten years of education. It didn’t help.

This is attitude training. You know how to do it, so stop thinking that it’s acceptable to muff it up. Every time you can’t be bothered to think about what you’re saying you’re going to get a bollocking. Pretty soon the pain of the public humiliation will exceed the pain of thinking and you will start to make an effort to do it right. You know how, you just don’t try.

As my old sales trainer used to say: Can’t do, training problem. Won’t do, attitude problem.

You need to change the attitude that it’s OK to come out with any old garbage as long as the other person can figure out what you mean. The attitude should be “I’ve spent ten years learning this crap and I’m still useless. It’s not good enough, it’s my own fault, and I need a good kick up the arse.”

I guess the trick is to achieve the right atitude adjustment from the student. You need them to want to do better, not to just hate you. You need the ‘tough but fair’ parade-ground sergeant thing going on.

Question is, would people buy it?

One of my students is about to go into the army. He’s looking forward to it because it will make a man of him.

On the other hand, half of my students have quit work ‘to study English’ but they’re not sincere about studying. They’re just fucking about. Fuckabouts. Work is too hard, so they make excuses and go waste time in the classroom again.

On the other hand again, even at university age, a lot of the time the bills are paid by parents and the kids are there out of a sense of obligation. If there are parents out there who send young kids to those brutal buxibans HG mentioned then maybe there are parents out there who will surrender their precious young adults to Sergeant Loretta’s House of Pain. :smiling_imp:

The place HG mentioned was discussed here somewhere. I heard the teachers are required to make at least one kid cry per class. That sounds a bit extreme, even when I’m having a bad day. I think you need to offer something a bit more balanced, but have a very strict “failure is not an option” approach.

Maybe you could give “I’m a horrible little man” badges instead of stickers? And hire the woman in the story linked.

Well, it really depends on who the students are. If you’d tried that shit with a university aged Buttercup, Id have taken you dowwwwn. Hehe.

You also have to think about plateaus, aptitudes and a lot of other stuff that isn’t very PC in EFL. Be honest, now; in terms of production, how many Chinese native speakers have you met who are above upper intermediate level? In the six years I’ve been in Taiwan, I can remember all the names of the people I’ve met who achieved an ‘Advanced’ or ‘Proficiency’ level. Most hit a wall at Intermediate/ Upper Intermediate. Many hit the wall at Pre-Intermediate.

Is it important? Probably not; you can still communicate the nuts and bolts at the intermediate levels, so if that is your goal, then you will probably achieve it.

What does bug me sometimes is students who arrogantly tell you they should be in a higher level class when their tenses are all over the place.

The problem is that various forces are pushing the need for an overseas education which is useless because of the students’ English level (even with the required test score isn’t enough to learn much). Students should ask themselves why overseas universities admit them with a 6-6.5 score in IELTS (intermediate-upper intermediate), which is barely enough to check a bus timetable.

Anyway, free-floating teaching not quite a rant over.

[quote=“Rascal”]I am not in the teaching business but I have a theory about something that was mentioned:
Watching English movies doesn’t help as long as they have subtitles, because most people will read those instead of listening to / focusing on the spoken language.[/quote]

Exactly, they focus on the activity instead of on language. Some people, but only some, actually use movies to try and improve their language skills and make a lot of progress without a teacher. Some find teachers like young bob, because they’re likewise motivated to learn. And the majority don’t really give a toss. Learning English is just an excuse to do something fun.

The key is to make sure that none of your self esteem or job satisfation comes from being successful in your work.

Another issue in Taiwan is the false inflation of level by cram schools, either from lack of expertise or in an attempt to flatter students into paying up. ‘Intermediate’ classes are routinely made up of Elementary level students. No school dares say; ‘Don’t be ridiculous. You can do the Intermediate class when you have a demonstrable ability to use the present perfect. You clearly can not even use the simple past. Back to square 1 (or 2)’. OK, maybe it’s slightly reductive to bring it all down to tense mastery, but even so…

[quote=“Loretta”]So, would this work?

The class runs on the premise that everybody is a beginner, nobody knows anything worth knowing. In fact, you have to unlearn your habits, which will be done in the only way you understand: by forcing/stressing you. You will be drilled with the correct sentence patterns. You will not be shy. You will shout your answers. Any mistakes will be corrected immediately, loudly, and publicly. You will be punished for getting it wrong. The class will not pretend to be fun or enlightened. You’re there to do as you’re told. The teacher is not your friend. He despises you for your failure, and will continue to despise you until you change your ways.

Boot camp English. Sounds awful.[/quote]
Ah, yes. What we have here is failure to communicate. :smiley:

There’s a popular shouting-based method in China, but with encouragement rather than humiliation. It’s called Crazy English. Sino-Platonic Papers has a good issue on this; but that one’s not online yet.

This is a bit OT, but the commonly held idea that those ‘boot-camp’ cram schools really work is rubbish. I was once called in to try and work with a class that had ‘graduated’ from several years of one of those schools. The problem was that these kids (average age around 12), although having a good grounding of sentence patterns in a formal setting, were totally unable to hold a basic conversation. They were worse than my grade 2 kids.

I think those who are satisfied with this type of school are comparing them to very run-of-the-mill cram schools. They have a certain kind of success because they have a well-disciplined classroom, parents involved in their children’s education, and homework that gets done. However there are much better ways of achieving these goals.

Back on topic, the idea of ‘boot-camp’ English for adult students might be good. It could even be a good marketing gimmick.

Brian

[quote=“cranky laowai”][quote=“Loretta”]So, would this work?

The class runs on the premise that everybody is a beginner, nobody knows anything worth knowing. In fact, you have to unlearn your habits, which will be done in the only way you understand: by forcing/stressing you. You will be drilled with the correct sentence patterns. You will not be shy. You will shout your answers. Any mistakes will be corrected immediately, loudly, and publicly. You will be punished for getting it wrong. The class will not pretend to be fun or enlightened. You’re there to do as you’re told. The teacher is not your friend. He despises you for your failure, and will continue to despise you until you change your ways.

Boot camp English. Sounds awful.[/quote]
Ah, yes. What we have here is failure to communicate. :smiley:[/quote]

Now you’re talking. They certainly understand that over here.

I do a form of this in some of my writing classes. I don’t really yell, but I do cajole, sometimes vigorously. For example, I teach IELTS writing students a five step process for analyzing the topic, brainstorming, preparing key ideas, writing, and then proofreading their Task 2 essays. I also teach a standard paragraph structure for intro, body, conclusion. I allow for plenty of variations depending on skill level, but they need to first understand and be commited to using these standard processes and structures before they can really focus on clarity and consider what do to under special circumstances.

I’d say 20% of my students accept what I’m teaching and follow it from the outset.
Another 30-40% finally figure it out halfway through the course. Others accept it later.
There are always holdouts. My goal is to get 90% of the class on the same page before we finish.
With average class sizes of 50-60 students, I feel pretty good about those results.

Aside from following instructions, they also need to get off their asses and practice. I say it that strongly, stuff like “Do you want to get a really low score on the IELTS writing? Well then keep telling yourself that practicing isn’t important, that it can wait until you fully understand the writing process. Keeping skipping the practice exams. Then you’ll have the chance to continue to enjoy living in Taiwan for years to come, without the need to go overseas to study!” They smile, but they get the point, and at least some people in the class have attitude breakthroughs in each session.

I often do the same routine for grammar issues. “Do you think that correct verb tense is just a nice concept? Okay, let’s tell your girlfriend or boyfriend that you loved him/her. Let’s tell your boss that you were enjoying your job. How do you feel about the consequences of making those mistakes? Wouldn’t it be better to get the goddamned verb tense correct the first time?” I say a lot of this in Mandarin, because I want them to fully understand.

They don’t have problems with verb tense, singular/plural, orphaned pronouns, word form, and misusing articles because they don’t know the principles. They learned it all in middle school. They have these problems because they haven’t learned to place importance on avoiding mistakes and correcting them, and haven’t figured out how to consistently apply them in a way that works. I teach them ways to make it easier, and encourage and cajole them into developing good grammar and usage habits.

It all takes a lot of energy, but if you love teaching, you don’t begrudge the energy it takes. With a good class, they’ll send a lot of energy my way.

Yelling and shouting? It might work for some, but not for most of my students (age range 22-45, many professionals), and I wouldn’t want to teach that way. It would either be so ridiculous that I’d laugh, or it would be stupidly mean, which I won’t do.

I think that Loretta was talking about a certain specific style of cram school (on the topic of which I agree with Brian; students are limited to developing a certain automatic ability with a restricted range of questions and answers, and I’d add that in my experience the seeming positive effects of such drilling are fairly short-term anyway).

But Tomas makes very good points in a more general sense. Yes, various techniques of persuasion and rhetoric may well be useful at times. But shouting and yelling doesn’t have much of a place in good teaching. Certainly not for teaching adults, but not for teaching children either in my opinion. When I was teaching kids, if I wanted to say something of a serious disciplinary nature, I’d make my voice quite quiet. The kids would notice the chill in the air and quieten down themselves in order to listen. And in terms of actual teaching (not only discipline) I never felt the need to shout either. Maybe I’ve been lucky. The teaching environment was fairly good in my last job, and is great in my job now. But really, even in the most difficult teaching situations I think it’s rarely necessary or advisable to shout.

Still, maybe Loretta might like to look into “Crazy English”! :wink:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crazy_English
lyce.cn/
If the political ramifications could be smoothed over, it could be a money spinner. At least until people realized it was just another gimmick.

A COW DON’T MAKE HAM, SONNY. BEAT IT.

Lots of interesting comments here. I thought I was just sounding off and speculating about stupid possibilities.

Which begs the question “why do they hit the wall?”

Nail. Head. Tomas the Hammer.

They hit the wall because they just don’t see that it’s important to get the basics right. As long as all the words are in there somewhere the other person can figure out what you mean, so lets learn some more vocabulary. Learning vocabulary is easier than changing the way you think, and nobody knows how to go about changing their habits anyway.

Attending conversation classes is not the answer, although something more goal-focused might provide the spur. If you can hammer students repeatedly with quotes like this one from the ielts.org website then you’re possibly making this stuff real enough to bother dealing with.

This translates as “grammar is important because it’s 25% of your grade,” which is a powerful incentive. But when you’re dealing with students who have no real goal beyond “improve my English” there still isn’t this appreciation that grammar is actually important. It’s just something that your teacher likes to go on about, but being Chinese and all you know very well that the important thing is to learn lots of new words.

Or not. You know that it’s important, but you can’t bring yourself to focus on it. It’s not that important even though you know it should be, and that’s partly a function of the teaching environment. There isn’t any pressure, and in the absence of any intrinsic motivation either then nothing gets changed.

The question is, can you create an environment where fucking it up is not an option? Well, obviously, you can. But would anybody go? A lot of people would be pretty pissed off if they signed up for a class and then found out that it was going to be so hard-core, but are there people who would sign up because they know they will be pressured? Are there people in Taiwan who recognise that the problem lies within themselves and would like to change, but still feel that they need someone to kick them into shape?

I had a student recently who was heading off to join the army for his national service. He was looking forward to it in a grim kind of way. Not just resigned, but accepting of the challenge. “I need to become a man, to grow up,” he said. Is that so different from “I need to stop being lazy and half-hearted about my language studies”? If you get to your early-twenties and are still making the same mistakes you made in junior high, are you going to recognise that something has to be done differently?

Whether it would actually work is a different matter. But if the goal is attitude adjustment rather than actually teaching then the result may be individuals who have studied for years, memorised tons of vocab, finally got to grips with the necessity of forming proper comprehensible sentences using the grammar they already know, and are now not afraid to speak out loud.

Individual differences in intelligence and intrinsic motivation covers most of it. The EFL industry sells the illusion that everyone can do it which is absurd.

Imagine we are talking about music, sport or even something as pedestrian as driving a car. You really want to play the violin. You try and try and try and you achieve a higher level than many, but still, you’re no musician. Or you have a talent at chess but just can’t be arsed because the hot boys are not in the chess club. Neither is going to work.

Individual differences in language processing abilities exist in our native languages. Many native speakers on this site can’t spell or use compound tenses inappropriately or use certain vocabulary incorrectly. To suggest that everyone is able to reach functional proficiency in a language which is different from one’s own in most conceivable ways is absurd. Of course, most people will be able to develop ways of communicating in the target language, but to be able to write and speak with no strain on the listener/reader is a long shot for the majority of second language learners unless their native language has strong similarities with the target language.

But that’s OK.

I advocate the ‘Just Do It’, Nike approach to language learning. You might be a fat fuck with an attitude problem, but you can still have fun in the gym in the shiny new trainers you just bought. Doesn’t matter if you’ll never run a marathon and you only put them on once or twice a week, it still makes you feel good. It’d probably be better to just run up the mountain every day, but you are too lazy and have no self-discipline; if you were different then you wouldn’t be fat, anyway. Does the personal trainer get pissed off that young Buttercup continues to eat all the pies and is utterly underwhelmed at the prospect of 4 sessions a week of cardio and weight training and continues to skive by the pool/turn up drunk? Sure, but his job is to make Buttercup feel good so she gets a little healthier, not to make Buttercup feel ugly and weak so she gives up. Then he gets his commision. Vanity and humiliation are uneasy bedfellows.

Anyway, I’d better sober up and get some sleep. I have an appointment with Mr ‘Just Did It’ in 9 hours…

You’re right. English is too complicated for most people. Are you advocating just letting them pretend it’s OK? Ultimately they’re disappointed with the result.

If they just can’t do it, and the truth is that many can’t, then wouldn’t they be better off doing something else while pretending to learn English? You know, making cakes in English will activate your language skills, honestly. And you like cakes. It’s a double whammy! Better than sitting in a conversation class wishing you had something going on in your life you could talk about. We’re dealing with people who often come to English class because they don’t have a hobby, after all.

But if they have a motivation problem, will they submit to external motivation? Buttercup doesn’t like being shouted at, but Loretta gets beaten up my Johnny Chinaman twice a week and comes away feeling crap and useless, then goes back for more and is actually improving.

Talking to adults about their classes - not just my students, and also students who have come to me for 1-1 because they feel they’re not making any progress at their regular classes - I often hear the complaint that it’s all too directionless. They’re just hanging around chatting and maybe being reminded about a few errors, but if a serious attempt is made to correct everything then they never complete the task, unit in the book, or whatever. In fact the most common complaint is that teachers don’t correct mistakes.

In my 1-1 classes I set aside a period where absolutely no mistakes are permitted. I’m nice about it, but the point is to insist on perfection at least some of the time. They usually improve, but that’s not really feasible with 10-20 students. People clam up because they’re afraid to be corrected all the time.

If Crazy English can get 20-30 million bellowing from the rooftops then they’re onto something, in terms of psychology. If everyone is doing it then you don’t feel that you’re drawing attention to yourself. Hmmm, speculating a bit here. Is it the fact that shouting is unnatural, so the language issue is part of a ‘role play’? You’re allowed to make mistakes because that’s a part of a persona that you’re pretending to be? Not sure about this, but starting to feel that it might be.

In high schools I sometimes make kids shout, and some are more willing to do that than to speak. It’s a release, an escape from the reality. It boosts the energy level too, which is a great improvement on the lifeless crap some students feel is appropriate for class.

Btw, I’m not advocating the abusive shouting used in some of these kid’s schools. If I was going to be rude it might have to be within the context of play-acting, ie ensure it’s not personal. You’re dealing with adults, after all, a bit of banter can’t hurt. In fact, it’s ‘natural.’ They’ll love that.

T: You’re an idiot! What are you?
S1: I an idiot!
S2-15: Correction. You’re an idiot!
T: Correct! Well done class! What is he?
S2-15: He’s an idiot!
T: What are you?
S1: I’m AN idiot!
T: Good! What am I?
S1: You’re a cunt!
T: Bloody right! Class, what am I?
etc

Ha. I have a friend who works for Nike and asked him about that.
" :unamused: They just don’t get it," he said. “Taiwanese people don’t ‘just do it,’ they prevaricate and make excuses and worry about imaginary dangers or the heat, sun, etc. They don’t just do it, and think you’re crazy if you do.”

Same thing. There is a resistance to doing anything wholeheartedly that is programmed into a lot of people. Myself included, to an extent. We all stay within our comfort zones, which is why we need ads telling us to just do it. But in this culture the resistance is greater, and the comfort zones are that much smaller, to the point that telling people to just do it is pointless. It’s an alien concept.

Billy the wimp might be willing to run up a mountain after he gets out of the army, because he’s learned that it’s not as hard as he thought. His comfort zone has expanded. But until he’s been pushed into doing something new and hard he’s not going to be ‘a man’, and he knows it. Hence the attitude towards the national service.

20 million people in China are willing to be pushed into behaving weirdly, because they believe it will help them get over the fears that prevent them learning English. What’s the difference?