- You know the answer to that question
- Check earlier in the thread
Those are rhetorical questions.
I don’t think you’re being fair about Qin Shihuang, sofun. Referencing a figure from Chinese antiquity is no different from an American referencing Cincinnatus or a Briton referring to Charlemagne. Does that mean that the US is part of Rome and the UK part of the Holy Roman Empire?
What is the subject here? Whose referencing a figure from Chinese antiquity is no different from an American referencing Cincinnatus or a Briton referring to Charlemagne?
Are you implying that Formosan can only reference to a Chinese? I would disagree.
I would agree that a Chinese may reference to Chinese only; it’s up to them. But Qinshihuang has nothing to do with Taiwan. It’s not like he invented anything or did something useful.
[quote=“sofun”]
臺北アリーナ。 Just pronounced it as 臺北アリーナ.
This is the same rationale as a Taigi speaking person would pronounce Canada as カナダ。
Told you before about the power of Kana. You didn’t believe me.[/quote]
how is that the power of Kana? That’s the way Taiwanese holo transliterate phonetically, with or without writing. It is no different from writing it as 台北A-li-na.
Both Cincinnatus and Charlemagne are pretty great dudes. A better analogy would be a US senator saying we should burn down decrepit downtowns around the US because that’s how Nero made Rome great. That analogy would perfect for it’s terrible comparison and erroneous facts.
[quote=“hansioux”][quote=“sofun”]
臺北アリーナ。 Just pronounced it as 臺北アリーナ.
This is the same rationale as a Taigi speaking person would pronounce Canada as カナダ。
Told you before about the power of Kana. You didn’t believe me.[/quote]
how is that the power of Kana? That’s the way Taiwanese holo transliterate phonetically, with or without writing. It is no different from writing it as 台北A-li-na.[/quote]
台北ㄚㄌ―ㄋㄚ ?
[quote=“yuli”][quote=“hansioux”][quote=“sofun”]
臺北アリーナ。 Just pronounced it as 臺北アリーナ.
This is the same rationale as a Taigi speaking person would pronounce Canada as カナダ。
Told you before about the power of Kana. You didn’t believe me.[/quote]
how is that the power of Kana? That’s the way Taiwanese holo transliterate phonetically, with or without writing. It is no different from writing it as 台北A-li-na.[/quote]
台北ㄚㄌ―ㄋㄚ ?[/quote]
works ok in this case, but terrible with more complex phonemes.
[quote=“hansioux”][quote=“sofun”]
臺北アリーナ。 Just pronounced it as 臺北アリーナ.
This is the same rationale as a Taigi speaking person would pronounce Canada as カナダ。
Told you before about the power of Kana. You didn’t believe me.[/quote]
how is that the power of Kana? That’s the way Taiwanese holo transliterate phonetically, with or without writing. It is no different from writing it as 台北A-li-na.[/quote]
sure let me answer this. I went over this issue with you before.
When you have Hanji-based glyphs and roman glyphs appearing in-line, you get very ugly and unnatural visual representation that will not work. Remember that Hanji-based glyphs fit in equal width boxes, whereas roman glyphs run horizontally along a baseline, an x-height and a caps line.
Readability will suffer for longer runs of text. Big warning.
Aesthetics will also suffer, making our language less appealing even to ourselves (meaning that acceptance will be low!!) Another big warning.
Taigi as a written language must not settle for these obvious shortcomings of mixing Hanji with Romans.
Below I provide an illustration of the anatomy of roman alphabet. This is common knowledge to a lot of folks here. This is not a weird theory.
The problem with most people working in the Taigi is that they’re uneducated in the fundamentals of calligraphy(or typography rather). Their horizon does not extend beyond recording phonemes and words.
Both Cincinnatus and Charlemagne are pretty great dudes. A better analogy would be a US senator saying we should burn down decrepit downtowns around the US because that’s how Nero made Rome great. That analogy would perfect for it’s terrible comparison and erroneous facts.[/quote]
Yours is a better example. But I wasn’t really focusing on the ethics of Cincinnatus or Charlemagne, just that they are major historical figures from millenia ago and another continent. I guess other examples would be David and Goliath, Jonah and the whale, and that Jesus guy.
What my point was is that I think it’s perfectly fine to reference another culture’s historic personages if your cultures are closely linked (you can’t deny that Taiwan and China are closely linked. Well you can, but nobody will take you seriously), and doing so does not imply a political union of any sort in the modern context.
[quote=“hansioux”][quote=“Zhengzhou2010”]I’m saddened about the slow diminution and likely loss of Taiwanese. It doesn’t seem like there is much that can be done on a government level though short of drastically enforcing and mandating the use of Taiwanese at the expense of other languages (similar to what the KMT did in promoting and enforcing Mandarin, and the Japanese colonial administration did regarding the Japanese language).
It just feels that younger people aren’t naturally using Taiwanese in their normal peer-to-peer and formal speech. There is no longer any government mandate that people must use Mandarin or avoid Taiwanese; but Taiwanese people are picking everyday through their speech to continue the primacy of Mandarin and diminution of Taiwanese. I’m guilty of this too. . . I hardly ever speak Taiwanese anymore except with my parents. And I’m not teaching Taiwanese to my son even though both my wife and I speak Taiwanese as equally well (or poorly depending on one’s perspective) as Mandarin.
I think Taiwanese is a lot of fun, and I love how Taiwanese words are seemlessly integrated into and enrich modern Taiwanese Mandarin. I don’t think Taiwanese will go to zero in my lifetime, but I can’t see how it will survive as a real living language until and unless younger people choose to want to speak the language en masse.[/quote]
There are plenty of things the government can do. For starters, the KMT can stop blocking the National Language Development Bill (國家語言發展法草案), which would make all native languages including Hakka, Holo and Aboriginal languages apart of the National Languag. Resorting back to KMT-like drastic enforcement of the use of Taiwanese would be ridiculously unnessecary. The nation’s laws regarding languages just needs to undo the Mandarin monopoly of taking tests, working in/with/for governments and getting an education.[/quote]
Thanks, Hansioux. Clearly I was too strong in my initial comment that there is little that the government can do. What I should have said is that I doubt the efficacy of government actions to promote the use of Holo and Hakka in light of the well entrenched social and cultural primacy of Mandarin. It seems to me that many younger people, even in informal and conversational speech, speak Mandarin as their principal mode of communication and only Holo or Hakka in a limited and halting manner before switching back to Mandarin. Moreover, the use of Holo (less sure about Hakka) in entertainment as kind of a humorous, earthy language only reinforces its secondary perception. We’ve all seen endless numbers of Taiwanese soaps, movies and variety shows where Holo is used mostly for comic relief by old folks and country bumpkins, but virtually never by the heroes/heroines and romantic leads that really carry the story. Even the Holo speaking gangsters are of the humorous “loma”/yakuza type rather than a more urbane, modern triad type (more Joe Pesci and Tony Soprano, less DeNiro and Pacino in the Godfather).
Certainly, allowing increased use of Holo and Hakka in official formats would have some positive effects, but I think it will be ephemeral if Holo and Hakka heritage speakers themselves don’t take more vigorous personal steps to use the language an a living and everyday manner that is normal, modern and non comedic. Holo heritage speakers make up like 70% of Taiwan’s population; by such weight they should be able to control the legal, cultural and social narrative about Holo in today’s democratic Taiwan.
[quote=“Zhengzhou2010”]
What I should have said is that I doubt the efficacy of government actions to promote the use of Holo and Hakka in light of the well entrenched social and cultural primacy of Mandarin. It seems to me that many younger people, even in informal and conversational speech, speak Mandarin as their principal mode of communication and only Holo or Hakka in a limited and halting manner before switching back to Mandarin.
Moreover, the use of Holo (less sure about Hakka) in entertainment as kind of a humorous, earthy language only reinforces its secondary perception. We’ve all seen endless numbers of Taiwanese soaps, movies and variety shows where Holo is used mostly for comic relief by old folks and country bumpkins, but virtually never by the heroes/heroines and romantic leads that really carry the story. Even the Holo speaking gangsters are of the humorous “loma”/yakuza type rather than a more urbane, modern triad type (more Joe Pesci and Tony Soprano, less DeNiro and Pacino in the Godfather).
Certainly, allowing increased use of Holo and Hakka in official formats would have some positive effects, but I think it will be ephemeral if Holo and Hakka heritage speakers themselves don’t take more vigorous personal steps to use the language an a living and everyday manner that is normal, modern and non comedic. Holo heritage speakers make up like 70% of Taiwan’s population; by such weight they should be able to control the legal, cultural and social narrative about Holo in today’s democratic Taiwan.[/quote]
Actually the government can still play a large part in affecting how Taiwanese Holo and Hakka are used in entertainment. Back in the mid 90s to early 2000s, when the government leaned heavily towards reviving native languages, the entertainment businesses saw a boom in the use of native languages. If you recall when Mayday Rock first came out in 1999, half the songs in their album were in Taigi. Even Jay Chou, who doesn’t really speak Taigi, had a Taigi song, or songs with Taigi chorus back in those days.
Now, you wouldn’t even find a single Taigi song in the latest Mayday Rock album, or actually it’s been this way for several albums. Even Wubai and China Blue, which is as closely connected to Taiwanese Holo culture as you can get, has 0 Taigi songs in his latest album (possibly also been this way for the past several albums).
Why?
Why is it suddenly “uncool” to write songs in native languages? Why was it so cool to do back in the late 90s and early 2000s? Don’t say it’s because of the Chinese market, how big of a Chinese market does Wubai get with his image anyway? Why then, would Wubai not write any songs in Taigi?
In fact, if I tell you Wubai and China Blue had very little songs in Taigi back in the mid 90s, and suddenly in his 1998 樹枝孤鳥 album all 12 tracks were in Taigi. Now it’s back to 0 songs in Taigi. Would you say that for some reason native language entertainment was really popular in the late 90s?
In fact many Taiwanese in their 30s would speak even less Taigi/Hakka, had it not been a flood of native language popular entertainment back in the late 90s. I am able to converse in Taigi now, but back then I had to learn the lyrics to 樹枝孤鳥 word by word phonetically, it was the first Taigi song that I was able to sing from start to finish.
The government’s position and programs can do a lot for native languages, in drastically short period of time too, if it is aimed at younger generations.
Starting from around 2004, Chinese Taipei had a change of heart, after loosing the presidential election. Chinese Taipei was attracted by China’s boom, and there was a honey moon period between Chinese Taipei and China, which culminated in 2008 and is pretty much finished now. The fantasy is over.
Musicians and artists that are more talented than wubai and Mayday are now focusing on Taigi and Haka. Wubai and Mayday are getting old.
The Chairman （the CEO rather), Fire Ex, Lin Sheng Xiang etc make much better music now.
…not to mention Wei Te-Shang’s movies, which piss off a lot of Chinese Nationalists.
not to mention a lot of the Takasago musicians who are now disregarding established mando-norm associated with Small-S and SHE, and have restored their identities now.
[quote=“sofun”]Starting from around 2004, Chinese Taipei had a change of heart, after losing the presidential election. Chinese Taipei was attracted by China’s boom, and there was a honey moon period between Chinese Taipei and China, which culminated in 2008 and is pretty much finished now. The fantasy is over.
Musicians and artists that are more talented than wubai and Mayday are now focusing on Taigi and Haka. Wubai and Mayday are getting old.
The Chairman （the CEO rather), Fire Ex, Lin Sheng Xiang etc make much better music now.[/quote]
The Chairman, Fire Ex, Lin Sheng Xiang are all from the same period as Wubai and Mayday, how are they younger or better than Wubai and Mayday? Nothing against The Chairman or Fire Ex, two of my favorite bands.
[quote=“hansioux”][quote=“sofun”]Starting from around 2004, Chinese Taipei had a change of heart, after losing the presidential election. Chinese Taipei was attracted by China’s boom, and there was a honey moon period between Chinese Taipei and China, which culminated in 2008 and is pretty much finished now. The fantasy is over.
Musicians and artists that are more talented than wubai and Mayday are now focusing on Taigi and Haka. Wubai and Mayday are getting old.
The Chairman （the CEO rather), Fire Ex, Lin Sheng Xiang etc make much better music now.[/quote]
The Chairman, Fire Ex, Lin Sheng Xiang are all from the same period as Wubai and Mayday, how are they younger or better than Wubai and Mayday? Nothing against The Chairman or Fire Ex, two of my favorite bands.[/quote]
The Chairman and Fire Ex improved over time while WuBai and Mayday stagnated. If you listen to "Kan jian ni de weilai " youtube.com/watch?v=w_Vgo3S2cCA you’d be able to see that the Chairman now surpassed Wubai, considering this song is predominately in Mandarin.
Fire Ex surpased Mayday as early as the time they released “Good Night, Taiwan” which is a precursor to this year’s hit.
Lin Shen Xiang’s “Planting trees” and his manifesto at the Jinma ceremony basically declared that Chinese-Taipei’s Mando-pop is trash or Junk food.
[quote=“sofun”][quote=“hansioux”][quote=“sofun”]Starting from around 2004, Chinese Taipei had a change of heart, after losing the presidential election. Chinese Taipei was attracted by China’s boom, and there was a honey moon period between Chinese Taipei and China, which culminated in 2008 and is pretty much finished now. The fantasy is over.
Musicians and artists that are more talented than wubai and Mayday are now focusing on Taigi and Haka. Wubai and Mayday are getting old.
The Chairman （the CEO rather), Fire Ex, Lin Sheng Xiang etc make much better music now.[/quote]
The Chairman, Fire Ex, Lin Sheng Xiang are all from the same period as Wubai and Mayday, how are they younger or better than Wubai and Mayday? Nothing against The Chairman or Fire Ex, two of my favorite bands.[/quote]
The Chairman and Fire Ex improved over time while WuBai and Mayday stagnated. If you listen to "Kan jian ni de weilai " youtube.com/watch?v=w_Vgo3S2cCA you’d be able to see that the Chairman now surpassed Wubai, considering this song is predominately in Mandarin.
Fire Ex surpased Mayday as early as the time they released “Good Night, Taiwan” which is a precursor to this year’s hit.
Linsen Xiang’s “Planting trees” and his manifesto at the Jinma ceremony basically declared that Chinese-Taipei’s Mando-pop is trash or Junk food.[/quote]
Not really a fan of the Chairman’s new new age pop vibe, or Wubai’s techno dance vibe. Maybe that’s just cause I’m old…
When the Chairman isn’t doing some kind of electronic rock thing in his new album, other new songs are slow and a bit flat. I missed when their songs packed a punch. For me, the Chiarman’s best work came from their earlier works. The first 3 albums, such as the 2000 你袂了解 to 2002 十一台 albums were great. It kills me that they weren’t more famous…
[quote=“hansioux”][quote=“sofun”][quote=“hansioux”][quote=“sofun”]Starting from around 2004, Chinese Taipei had a change of heart, after losing the presidential election. Chinese Taipei was attracted by China’s boom, and there was a honey moon period between Chinese Taipei and China, which culminated in 2008 and is pretty much finished now. The fantasy is over.
Musicians and artists that are more talented than wubai and Mayday are now focusing on Taigi and Haka. Wubai and Mayday are getting old.
The Chairman （the CEO rather), Fire Ex, Lin Sheng Xiang etc make much better music now.[/quote]
The Chairman, Fire Ex, Lin Sheng Xiang are all from the same period as Wubai and Mayday, how are they younger or better than Wubai and Mayday? Nothing against The Chairman or Fire Ex, two of my favorite bands.[/quote]
The Chairman and Fire Ex improved over time while WuBai and Mayday stagnated. If you listen to "Kan jian ni de weilai " youtube.com/watch?v=w_Vgo3S2cCA you’d be able to see that the Chairman now surpassed Wubai, considering this song is predominately in Mandarin.
Fire Ex surpased Mayday as early as the time they released “Good Night, Taiwan” which is a precursor to this year’s hit.
Linsen Xiang’s “Planting trees” and his manifesto at the Jinma ceremony basically declared that Chinese-Taipei’s Mando-pop is trash or Junk food.[/quote]
Not really a fan of the Chairman’s new new age pop vibe, or Wubai’s techno dance vibe. Maybe that’s just cause I’m old…
When the Chairman isn’t doing some kind of electronic rock thing in his new album, other new songs are slow and a bit flat. I missed when their songs packed a punch. For me, the Chiarman’s best work came from their earlier works. The first 3 albums, such as the 2000 你袂了解 to 2002 十一台 albums were great. It kills me that they weren’t more famous…[/quote]
It’s not flat. It’s just more sophisticated and balanced. There’s more flavour in their music now. The songs you liked were Taiwan-punk in its early stage, which wasn’t always well-controlled, and the Chairman has grown out of it already. Good for them.
Maybe it’s just you getting old? 你袂了解 probably reflected the zeitgeist of the 90s and early 2000s, which was more innocent.
[quote=“sofun”]
It’s not flat. It’s just more sophisticated and balanced. There’s more flavour in their music now. The songs you liked were Taiwan-punk in its early stage, which wasn’t always well-controlled, and the Chairman has grown out of it already. Good for them.
Maybe it’s just you getting old? 你袂了解 probably reflected the zeitgeist of the 90s and early 2000s, which was more innocent.[/quote]
I’m getting old, but regardless, their new genre isn’t exactly all the hype with kids these days either, in fact I dare to say it’s even less popular. Not that it’s the only thing that matters, but I still prefer their older songs, or Fire Ex’s new songs.
By the way, many of the Chairman’s earlier songs were also social commentaries, and not just “more innocent” songs. I think 塞車, 攏袂歹勢, 立法院 are pretty great examples. In 不爽 they even poked fun at Lien Chan, singing “if you are loaded, even Miss China could be yours.”