Since when is being a teacher a mark of shame?

Discussion Open Forum
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I have seen “English teacher” used in a derogatory fashion several times on Forumosa, as if it were some kind of shame to be a teacher. This post isn’t intended to be indignation at the insults. I am just confused as to why some consider teaching to be shameful. At first I thought it was more of the “I’m richer than you” type stuff, like saying “you’re such a loser, you probably work at McDonald’s”. But I doubt that’s it. Everybody knows that grade school teachers don’t get rich, and yet they are widely respected, at least in the US (I assume its the same in other Western countries?). Also, English teachers in Taiwan can do pretty well for themselves from what I understand, especially if they do private tutoring in addition to teaching. On one of those “why are you in Taiwan” threads several people said they came to Taiwan to make good money teaching English and pay off their student loans, save up money, etc.

So then what the heck is it? How is saying “you’re an teacher” an insult?

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My question is ‘Why would anyone put worms in a can anyway?’

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[quote=“gao_bo_han”]
So then what the heck is it? How is saying “you’re an teacher” an insult?[/quote]

It’s not an insult. Anyone who tries to use it as an insult is just being a snob.

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There are those who only gain a sense of self-importance by putting others down.

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There are a few reasons.

Long before I started teaching (in Japan and Canada), I heard, “Those who can, do; those who can’t, teach.” Ran into the same sentiment in grad. school. I didn’t put much stock in that then, and don’t now–doing and enabling are very different–but do see where it’s coming from.

Over here, there are enough people teaching who couldn’t care less about teaching, or who recognize the status teachers have traditionally enjoyed here and are acting parasitically, that the ‘English teacher’ image has been significantly tarnished. Too bad. When French was the lingua franca, those teaching it were invested in the idea of providing an education, culture, and civilization (ain’t imperialism great); today, we’ve fallen back on offering a chance to maybe get into a better school, make more money, and more easily travel… but mostly equate learning English with making money. Maybe it’s honest, but it doesn’t have the same pizazz.

Whatever. Around here, usually it’s just a cheap insult coming from a few knuckleheads who can’t, or can’t be bothered to defend their views (particularly to those who lack experience or specialization).

But I find it hard to understand how causing something click in a student’s mind, or enabling them able to apply a new skill could be anything other than source of pride.

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[quote=“myury”][quote=“gao_bo_han”]
So then what the heck is it? How is saying “you’re an teacher” an insult?[/quote]

It’s not an insult. Anyone who tries to use it as an insult is just being a snob.[/quote]

That doesn’t explain what the insult is though. To me it’s like saying, “you’re a fireman” or “you’re a policeman”. Calling someone a teacher isn’t a normal insult and I don’t know what the “insult” is, and yet we see TC use it constantly, and Doctor Evil and fred smith sometimes. Maybe these fellows can enlighten us?

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Ain’t that the truth.

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But how is it a put down? I don’t get it.

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This one is an oddity, esp here. I get treated with contempt on a regular basis. Most of the parents of the kids I teach can’t even be bothered to look me in the face or even say hello.

I think that many parents look at English teachers as a necessary evil, or buy into the whole, 'they must be losers to come here" mentality. Albeit, that there are many scumbags who fell into teaching as a way a paying for the party, there are also many who take the responsibility very seriously.

For the most part I can say I have been treated like garbage by my bosses and parents, but respected and loved by my students. Most days the latter is enough but sometimes it gets to be tiresome.

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[quote=“Jaboney”]There are a few reasons.

Long before I started teaching (in Japan and Canada), I heard, “Those who can, do; those who can’t, teach.” Ran into the same sentiment in grad. school. I didn’t put much stock in that then, and don’t now–doing and enabling are very different–but do see where it’s coming from.

Over here, there are enough people teaching who couldn’t care less about teaching, or who recognize the status teachers have traditionally enjoyed here and are acting parasitically, that the ‘English teacher’ image has been significantly tarnished. Too bad. When French was the lingua franca, those teaching it were invested in the idea of providing an education, culture, and civilization (ain’t imperialism great); today, we’ve fallen back on offering a chance to maybe get into a better school, make more money, and more easily travel… but mostly equate learning English with making money. Maybe it’s honest, but it doesn’t have the same pizazz.[/quote]

I see what you’re saying, but giving students skills that can help them make more money than people not fortunate enough to receive an education is an integral part of being a teacher. I agree with the parasitic part (but am not exactly sure what you are referring to), but helping kids learn skills (foreign languages, physics, etc.) is no shame whatsoever.

A source of pride for the teacher, and for the community who should and usually does honor its teachers.

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Oh it’s all simple enough. You see you calculate the percentage of Taiwan’s GDP spent in the past x number of years paying foreigners to teach English and then you forget you know a word of Chinese and start wandering around the country trying to embrace the locals in interesting conversation, or even seeking simple directions.

But hey, it’s alright, I have the same utter contempt for people that assess students for entry to foreign universities, and indeed those scummy universities that award these foreign students with their receipts, er, foreign degrees that they then use to pick up jobs where I ultimately have to try and sort out their crap logic and language.

Hang youse all!

HG

(Fer chrissake, ease up, teaching is a noble gig, or at least should be.)

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With all of the silly little stickyball schools around Taiwan, is it any wonder that Taiwanese don’t take us seriously? For many parents here, the only thing they have ever seen foreign teachers do is sing and dance, while the Chinese co-teacher does the “serious” teaching. As long as cram school bosses hire losers, or force good teachers into teaching like retards, we’ll have an image problem.

I have to bite my tongue every time a parent calls my school asking to talk to a “teacher” (meaning the secretaries) about the “foreigners” (meaning the teachers). I am damn proud of my teaching staff!

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Teachers are often seen as losers because a fair chunk of us are. And the locals know this. If you tell a Taiwanese you’ve been here for a decade, they have mixed feelings; they take it as a compliment that you like their country enough to stay, but they think it strange that we don’t head back to a nicer country with a better standard of living.

As for high-end teaching jobs, they are only a little less of a farce than your run-of-the-mill buxiban. Take IELTS and TOEFL for example. It’s a business so schools take on students who should be turned away and told to study general English for a year or two. Schools pander to student misconceptions and teach “tips”.

Of course, Western universities are also whoring themselves, taking students with sub-standard English (and no real interest in their subject) for thirty pieces of silver, and thus hurting the quality of education.

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Jesus mate, if you’re a loser then the bar you’ve just set for the rest of the world is awfully damned high.

I hear you, oh sweet Jesus I hear you.

Here’s a test, the next time some besuited twat gleefully informs you he has an MBA from overseas, ask him what MBA stands for or how to spell it out. Then ask if that should be Masters or Master’s. They are destined to fail, I assure you.

HG

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But how is it a put down? I don’t get it.[/quote]
It’s a lame attempt to put you down, i.e. those making the comments think they are something better. It does not mean they are or that there is anything wrong with the teaching profession.

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Teaching is an honorable profession, but of course there are going to be individuals who treat it as a true vocation and those who see it as merely a means to an end. A good friend who taught English in Japan had to face a not-too-pleased future father-in-law who after grilling him for a long time about his qualifications for teaching English, summed him up as follows:

Now, that might be a bit unfair – there are plenty of westerners with no degrees in teaching, linguistics or English who apply themselves seriously to effectively teaching others the English language. There are dozens of Asian-language teachers in western countries who also have no language-teaching-related degrees or particular qualifications other than their immersion in the foreign tongue of their original home.

Complicating the issue of being motivated to be a good teacher is the contentious relationship between teachers and schools. There are people who probably start as good teachers who end up not so good anymore because of maltreatment by employers, but in those cases I can only guess that respect should only rightfully accorded to those who continue to teach well in the face of adversity (and who take appropriate steps to find better employment).

Out and about in Taipei, it seems the assumption of many Taiwanese is that foreigners have no purpose to be here without our native language. People ask if I am a teacher and express surprise when they find out I’m not. In one meeting years ago, a Taiwanese known for disliking foreigners did rather condescendingly suggest that my job consisted of “writing reports in English”, but of course that suggestion was made out of ignorance.

On Forumosa, I think there’s often a funhouse-mirror version of that. People here know that it’s annoying to have locals assume your profession and so they turn that about and use it … and then take a perverse thrill in knowing that although there is nothing dishonorable about teaching English the recipient of such a comment will take it as an insult. In truth, there should be no insult taken – any more than there is a problem with being called an “engineer,” “doctor,” etc. Teachers are not paid low wages within this society, and with all the people writing textbooks and spending hours putting together lesson plans, etc. it should be stale as an insult by now.

Reminds me of the old comedian comeback to hecklers:

or the rougher variant:

Now, I realize that the food and sex industries are also among the oldest professions, but I think those are better discussed in a different thread.

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Many people here who teach are unqualified and come here simply to make money and have their fun ‘cultural’ experience or support themselves while learning Chinese. They are good people who may not have much theoretical background or practical skill but who genuinely love children and help them speak English through their enthusiasm and commitment. Many of these teachers are adored by their students, which motivates them to learn and develop a love for language study which can only be a good thing.

Others have no real interest in teaching, but get on with it and do a reasonable job. They have other reasons for being in Taiwan and so a full range of career options may not be open to them.

Many teachers are qualified and/or skilled people. They aren’t really motivated by money, for a variety of reasons, otherwise they would be teaching for a salary and pension, etc, in their countries of origin. They have an interest in linguistics, pedagogy and helping other people to achieve their goals. They want a flexible, interesting, people-centred career that takes them all over the world.

Many are clueless drunks who couldn’t take care of a houseplant yet alone educate a child. There is very little quality control because most school owners either don’t speak much English and/or don’t have the knowledge to run a successful language program. Many owners don’t care at all about this because their school is a money making facility, not a charitable institution and difficult decisions must be made.

Others, a tiny, tiny amount, as in all countries, are criminals. Children attract perverts. Far away countries attract people on the run.

Therefore, English teachers are all bad.

An unwarranted excess of self esteem gives certain expat types who get sent here by their companies feel their life is so much more authentic and real. They also feel they are doing important work. However, I’ve always, ALWAYS, kept a straight face when these office lads tell me what they do because however yawnworthy and lame it may seem to me, my grandparents brought me up to understand that earning your own living and paying your own way is never shameful and a street sweeper is just as important as a captain of industry. I am not a heart surgeon. I am not working on an HIV vaccine. I am not an international diplomat. I’m simply not clever enough, but I do do the job I have to the best of my ability, so to sneer at that is not cool.

(Sidenote: just as punchably pompous is comment ‘oh, I don’t mean you, you’re a ‘real’ teacher’ which is usually directed at older teachers. Don’t say it boys, it’s really annoying.)

Ah, what a long and earnest post…

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HG wrote: [quote]Here’s a test, the next time some besuited twat gleefully informs you he has an MBA from overseas, ask him what MBA stands for or how to spell it out. Then ask if that should be Masters or Master’s. They are destined to fail, I assure you. [/quote]

:laughing: :laughing: I hear you Bro. Most - and I mean most - of these high-flyers with precious foreign degrees can’t even form a correct sentence saying what they studied. “I graduate the Au-Ker-lan University, the master of marketing.”

Enough to drive a man to drink.

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[quote=“dangerousapple”]With all of the silly little stickyball schools around Taiwan, is it any wonder that Taiwanese don’t take us seriously? For many parents here, the only thing they have ever seen foreign teachers do is sing and dance, while the Chinese co-teacher does the “serious” teaching. As long as cram school bosses hire losers, or force good teachers into teaching like retards, we’ll have an image problem.
[/quote]

Yep,I got into one of those deals a while ago and I became really disillusioned. I wanted to help them but, all they wanted was for me to play games etc… For a long time I questioned if there were good schools out there that didn’t just want losers. Alls good now though.

I think one of the things wrong with the English teaching world is the casual nature of it all. I know countless people here who teach the minimum hours so they have a visa to do other stuff. People can always say “If it all fucks up tomorrow, I can always go back to teaching English for a bit”. Therefore, we may have a significant percentage of people teaching who a) only want beer money or b) are just waiting for something else to crop up; kind of like temping back home. And just like temping back home, none of these teachers really want to be there. So, I would hazard a guess we have a self-fulfilling prophecy. They don’t care about the work, kids education suffers, local parents (and some foreigners) think we are all losers.

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Trick questions are not fair.