Slavery. Who gives a shit?

Discussion Open Forum
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[quote=“ImaniOU”]I only heard hearty chuckles at imagining black people, or niggers as they called them, being beaten more often to help keep them in line or if not, kill them.

These are your average, middle-class Londoners having a dinner party in their garden.[/quote]
Sorry, but that’s utter bollocks. They’re anything but average.
Anyway, if those balck fellows are getting an official apology from the fucking English, then I want one too. godammit. We had it MUCH worse off them than you guys.

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40 acres and mule, boys, 40 acres and a mule

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[quote=“Loretta”]
Apologies are not going to be forthcoming because apologies mean admitting liability, and there are huge lawsuits at stake.

[quote]Various claims are being pursued, the most striking being a $777 trillion damages case lodged by the World Reparations and Repatriation Truth Commission.

The Ghana-based body says Africa was systematically and unlawfully stripped of its human resources for more than 400 years.
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.
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“We do believe in reparations,” says activist David Pott, who is organising a month-long march from Hull to London to mark the trade’s abolition.

“If we just said sorry, I don’t think that would be enough.” [/quote]

This all translates as “I’m black and I’m poor and it’s all your fault because you’re white, so give me some money,” and is a slap in the face for anyone who tries to respect individuals for who they are instead of where they came from. Thankfully, I am aware that not all black people are part of this stupidity, and apologise to anyone who got the wrong idea.[/quote]

That commission has other goals as well:

Source: awrrtc.org/about-us.php

Wonder how many takers they will find in the US…

Getting extra cash in order to compensate for slavery is one thing, however I really do doubt that most US blacks would like to see the situation recitified 100%.

The average african-american is better off than the average african. This is no excuse for slavery, which was and is a crime against humanity. That said, I think that the fact that their ancestors were caught and transported to America basically like cattle has made the current generation of african-americans better off than they would have been if their ancestors were not caught and sent over the atlantic.

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[quote=“sandman”][quote=“ImaniOU”]I only heard hearty chuckles at imagining black people, or niggers as they called them, being beaten more often to help keep them in line or if not, kill them.

These are your average, middle-class Londoners having a dinner party in their garden.[/quote]
Sorry, but that’s utter bollocks. They’re anything but average.
Anyway, if those balck fellows are getting an official apology from the fucking English, then I want one too. godammit. We had it MUCH worse off them than you guys.[/quote]

Actually, they were average middle-class WASPs. I am not saying their action was average. Just their profile. I meant average as opposed to oh say, middle-class skinheads with swastikas tattooed in the back of their necks. They were not openly racist, but I happened to have been around to listen to their joking of a recent beating. And then had to deal with their open hostility when I had asked to be moved, knowing my hard earned savings was going into their pockets while treating me that way.

One of my biggest pet peeves is when people put words into my mouth. Point to where I defend slavery reparations. I dare you. I double dog dare you. If you read my post instead of jumping to the defensive, I am saying that no one can make you feel guilty. If you feel guilty for what people blame on you, that’s on you. But like Dangermouse (and a number of other forumosans) try to do by lumping all black people as being criminals and therefore excuse police brutality as being a normal result, it rolls off my back because I know it’s not true. I feel no guilt for what other people have chosen to do, just because they are the same color as me. I suppose what I was saying was you need thicker skin if this bothers you so much.

What did disturb me was that you would say “Who gives a shit?” about something that has been and continues to be a part of our economic system. To ask who gives a shit about history. It’s quite a statement to have chosen those words as the title of this thread. And it seems to me there is some resentment underlying these words. Otherwise, you wouldn’t have started this thread in such a tone with your first post.

Oh, and Dangermouse, I know a few people from Birmingham who can vouch for white on white crimes like you’ve experienced. Does that mean everyone is a suspect and therefore deserving of police brutality, or just certain people?

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I agree. It’s not so much your position as how you approached it.

We should all care. We have awareness of the issue, and we should never allow ourselves to become part of that same problem again. And we should do our best to do away with the practice in the modern world.

Now, should we apologize? Should a modern government apologize? I don’t think so. Maybe express public sympathy and denounce the previous practice, but I don’t think we’re even capable of apologizing. Not even our government. And I don’t think modern African Americans are capable of accepting such an apology.

An apology from someone who did not do the thing being apologized for is not an apology. If a man apologized to the family his brother murdered, they would accept it at best as an expression of sympathy. They’d still want the apology from the murderer, even if they wouldn’t accept it. For there to be a real apology, I feel it must be from the person who made the offence to the person who was offended.

The best we can do is enact policy to attempt to rectify social inequality and work to eliminate the current practice. We can express our condemnation of such mistreatment through both our words and through what we do.

Yes, ultimately we care. But I don’t think we can apologize.

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Yeah. When is Mexico going to apologize to the Toltecs and other tribes for the slavery and ritual human sacrifice the cannibals of the Aztec Empire committed against their neighbors? How would you feel if it was your ancestor who had his still-beating heart ripped out of his chest by priests as honor to the Sun God?

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Of course there is always the argument about morality being objective vs subjective and the implications it has with time…

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I agree. It’s not so much your position as how you approached it.
[/quote]I also agree, but I have a feeling the “approach” was intentional since the OP has proven to be quite intelligent on a few occasions already…

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I think we are having culture clash problems here, gang. To translate, “Who gives a shit?” roughly equates to :idunno: , rather than :raspberry: for British people. Not that the OP needs me to translate.

Edit Unless we’re talking about Ken Livingstone. I hope he only apologized on behalf of Londoners. Tool.

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Yeah. When is Mexico going to apologize to the Toltecs and other tribes for the slavery and ritual human sacrifice the cannibals of the Aztec Empire committed against their neighbors? How would you feel if it was your ancestor who had his still-beating heart ripped out of his chest by priests as honor to the Sun God?[/quote]

The nation of Mexico doesn’t even go back that far and isn’t an Aztec government. :laughing: Keep it relevant if you want to be taken seriously. Want to turn the tables on me properly? Ask the US government to apologize to the native Americans. Do I have a problem with that? Hell no.

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Yeah. When is Mexico going to apologize to the Toltecs and other tribes for the slavery and ritual human sacrifice the cannibals of the Aztec Empire committed against their neighbors? How would you feel if it was your ancestor who had his still-beating heart ripped out of his chest by priests as honor to the Sun God?[/quote]

The nation of Mexico doesn’t even go back that far and isn’t an Aztec government. :laughing: Keep it relevant if you want to be taken seriously. Want to turn the tables on me properly? Ask the US government to apologize to the native Americans. Do I have a problem with that? Hell no.[/quote]

Well, it’s a little effing late now, innit?

Sure it was terrible, just can’t honestly see how it’s supposed to somehow make things better. Kind of sets a precedent, too. “Hey gang, let’s kill all these ______* in an all night orgy of mayhem and ethnic cleansing. Then next week, we just tell the world we’re really really sorry. Really. Sure, they might lock up the ten of us, but at least our kids and descendants wont have to live with these ________* for eternity.”

*insert ethnic, religious, racial or whatever group of your choosing.

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I’d be very careful if I were you, Imani before you start insinuating that I am calling all blacks criminals.

It’s not the normal result at all, and very rarely is. In fact, I think you’ll find the police are very nervous about approaching black people these days because it often results in repercussions for the officers involved as the arrests are invariably “racist.”

It doesn’t bother me at all - you’re the one with the bee in your bonnet.

:unamused:

No, and I can vouch for white on white crimes also. However, 5% of the population doing 40% of the crime in some areas does seem to be rather high, don’t you think?

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Nope, we had it coming.[/quote]

But the slaves weren’t doing the enslaving. The pirates were mainly Berber, Arab, and Turk, who had been enslaving black Africans for 1000 years before we picked up the habit. Besides, we were just beginning to use black slaves ourselves in 1530.

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Thank you Buttercup. That’s the whole point. The slavery of 200 years ago is a dead issue, and I couldn’t care less about it any more than I care about, for instance, Shaka Zulu’s empire building not long afterwards. All kinds of horrible things have been done by various people throughout history, it’s good to know about them, but they’re not on my conscience.

The point is that I’m going through my life minding my own business and suddenly a certain group of people - those who define themselves and others by their skin colour - are telling me that I need to apologise for something I didn’t do. Me, my country, all white people, we’re responsible and not only do certain activists want an apology, there is also talk of paying reparations.

I don’t owe anybody anything for stuff that happened hundreds of years ago. Anybody wants to argue otherwise is part of the racial inequality problem the world undoubtedly still faces. Bringing your bad experiences with a few ‘average’ countrymen of mine into the discussion is implying that I and everyone else with a white skin from the UK is a racist, adding fuel to the fire.

OK, I should have been clearer. Too late to go back and edit the title. Slaverty is bad, whether it’s blacks in Darfur or East European girls in brothels in Birmingham, or anybody else anywhere.

I think the above should clarify that.

Bloody right there’s some resentment, and if you look at this page you’ll see that a great many other Brits feel the same way. How would you like it if you prided yourself on not judging people by their skin, were willing to argue with people expressing racist points ofo view, and suddenly were being told that you were responsible for horrific crimes against millions of people? There may be widespread racism in most countries in the world, but there is no inherent racism in the way I do things, and nobody has any right to have any lingering resentment towards me for it.

Racism will never end until people start to treat people as people. Assuming certain qualities of someone because of the circumstances of their birth, hating them because of things they have no control over, is a stupid and evil thing to do. And I won’t accept it.

Those people in the UK who want apologies are also British. I don’t care whether they’re black or white or green, they’re part of the country and have exactly the same rights and priviliges I do. They have nothing to complain about that many people of other ethnic groups also have to complain about. Defining yourself as ‘black’ instead of ‘British’ is creating a ‘them and us’ situation that is a rejection of the goodwill and equality offered by others - such as me.

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Yeah, I saw that movie too. :unamused:

I’m surprised Mel Gibson hasn’t made an anti-slavery movie to mark the anniversary and pursue his own anti-English agenda further.

Anyway, here’s a quote for you from someone south of the border.

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[quote=“Loretta”]
Anyway, here’s a quote for you from someone south of the border.

I’m sure he meant the indigenous Britons, not the English. The Angles were also Germanic invaders.

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A quote from White Gold: The Extraordinary Story of Thomas Pellow and Islam’s One Million White Slaves:

[i]In the early 1700s, the trade in European slaves was a booming business throughout North Africa. According to Milton, nearly 1 million Europeans passed through the markets of coastal towns, on the north coast of Morocco, where they were auctioned off to the highest bidder. For better or worse, Pellow’s crew was spared such humiliation and instead marched directly to the imperial city of Meknes, where they were ceremonially presented as gifts to the cruel and capricious sultan of Morocco, Moulay Ismail.

Being a strong and hearty young boy, Pellow immediately caught the attention of Moulay Ismail and was initiated into the sultan’s personal retinue of servants. Pellow spent the next 23 years as a slave at the imperial court, where he was routinely beaten and starved, forced to convert to Islam and ultimately placed at the head of the sultan’s armies. Through a series of fortunate accidents, Pellow not only managed to survive his ordeal but eventually escaped back to England to publish his adventures for a captive audience.
[/i]

And a small history lesson to those blacks who want an apology for the slave trade:

[i]The Islamic terror began in ‘the terrible summer of 1625’ when North African corsair slave raiders invaded and devastated the southern coasts of England, and for a short while even raised the green battle standard of Islam over English territory that had engraved upon it the terrible promise “The gates of Paradise are under the shade of swords ." From the coast of Cornwall, Devon, Dorset and Southern Ireland, the Islamic slave raiders murdered and stole away entire villages to be sold into slavery in the Islamic Empire of the East.

The slavers in 1625 from that one raid alone then returned to Algiers with a thousand British men, women and children to be sold into slavery. In total the North African Islamic pirates abducted and enslaved more than 1 million – 1.3 million White Europeans between 1530 and 1780 in a series of raids that depopulated coastal towns from Sicily to Cornwall.

To keep the slave population stable, around one-quarter had to be replaced each year, which for the period 1580 to 1680 meant around 8,500 new slaves a year, totalling 850,000 slaves taken. The same methodology would suggest 475,000 were abducted in the previous and following centuries. From 1500 to 1650, when trans-Atlantic slaving was still in its infancy, more white Christian slaves were probably taken to Barbary than black African slaves to the Americas.

According to one estimate, 7,000 English people were abducted between 1622-1644, many of them ships’ crews and passengers who were stopped and seized by slave traders mid voyage.
[/i]

I feel so oppressed. I need an apology from Muslim African nations. :unamused:

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[quote=“Loretta”]So here’s a question.

I used to know a girl who was adopted as a baby by a normal white couple in the UK. She happens to have black skin, but her adoptive parents and siblings never considered it to be an issue and she grew up surrounded by people who respected her as an individual.

She’s never considered herself ‘black’ because it’s a meaningless label to her and the people in her life. She hasn’t had to deal with any of the discrimination or lack of opportunity claimed by the aggrieved minority either.

So, do I owe her an apology? She’s the descendant of slaves and I’m a whitey.
Or is she now ‘white’ and has to apologise to the black community?
Or is it just possible that some people, regardless of their skin colour, can just get on with their lives without being labelled as anything by anybody?[/quote]

Interesting eh? I often wonder what would happen to those people in the States, for example, who read in a book that they were descended from Irish peasants forced out of Ireland by the cruel British, if they suddenly discovered to their horror that they were actually descended from Scottish plantation stock and the oppressors rather than the oppressed!!! What exact difference would it make to their lives? One minute their ancestors are victims of a great wrong, and the next they are perpetrators of a great evil. You could hear the champagne cocks popping in the psychiatrists’ offices from miles around!

It’s always amused me the way Americans absolutely have to trace where they’re from, black or white. Have you ever met an American who doesn’t know? Myself personally, I haven’t a baldy what anyone older than my grandfather did or where he was from. I assume, being raised a Northern Irish Protestant, that my ancestors came over having been given land taken from Irish peasants, and set about oppressing the Irish with reckless abandon, putting them to the sword for the sheer hell of it and writing to Punch about the gaiety of it all. On the other hand, I think my mother’s side of the family might have been eating second hand soil scraped from the boots of dead farmers given their geographic origins, surname, and the suspiciously high number of Irish-speakers among them. None of this of course matters one iota to anyone with a titter of wit. The whole lot of them in my parents’ generation were school teachers and bankers and engineers and didn’t really want for a whole lot.

YOU as an individual do not, but the nation which historically oppressed her ancestors owes an apology, IMO, to the group as a whole which was oppressed, for the sake of those amongst them who still feel wronged. And it does you no harm to have the nation so apologize, so why get your frilly panties in a bunch over it?[/quote]

Why? For what purpose? Will you require proof of actual oppression? What if I, as a white Irishman, feel such a degree of sympathy with my fellow oppressees (and given that I have not established my own Opressee credentials myself) that I “feel wronged” and require that the apology by extended to those who have, like me, been affected by proxy? And if I am unable to verify my Oppresse credentials, will there be a government fund I can draw on to establish whether my forefathers were murdering Scottish bastards, or poor peasant farmers forced to adopt the name of their masters or starve. The tears are welling up in my eyes and I need an apology fast.

And furthermore, has any thought been given to how agonising it is for a white man whose ancestors may have been oppressed to not be recognised as such without having to show good cause? It’s easy if you’re black because people can see that straight away just by looking at you: obviously every black person who was not born and brought up in Africa and who is not currently there is ipso facto in full and irrefutable possession of proof that at some point some ancestor of his was oppressed, and apologies (or not) are duly extended just in case anyway. How do you think I feel on the anniversary of the potato famine not knowing whether my ancestors were starving to death or putting the boot in? I don’t even know whether to pour myself a commiserative Scotch or a glass of Jameson I’m so confused! Have you ever considered the terrifying fact that I might actually be ENGLISH??? :noway:

The best thing I think is just to have a General Apology For All The Bad Things That Have Happened and be done with it followed by a huge international orgy. It’s the only way.

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Thank christ I’m not a nationalist or I’d be puking blood right now. The shame! The SHAME! And Gordon Brown went to my high school.
I’m sorry, all you Brits, on behalf of my fellow countrymen. I truly am.

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John Smith… John Smith…