He eats so much that what? Why is there nothing completing this sentence?
He eats so much that he is very fat.
Sounds OK to me.
He is so fat because he eats so much.
Sounds OK.
But using ‘so’ without it being cause/effect just sounds wrong to me.
Or is this a North American thing where ‘so’ basically means ‘a lot’?
He eats so much = he eats a lot. — ???
I think of it as a chinglish thing that nobody else has noticed as we have slowly adapted to teaching “English with Chinese characteristics”. Or am I wrong? It seems related to the whole ‘because’ disaster: Because it is raining. So I will take my umbrella.
Students never get the message that it is wrong because most of the bloody textbooks and tests give answers that are grammatically ‘wrong’.
Is that a subjective opinion about them being wrong? I’m talking about things like this:
Why did Joe buy a bigger pair of pants?
“So he could fit into them”
or “Because he is very fat.”
Wouldn’t it be better to teach:
Why did Joe buy a bigger pair of pants?
“He bought a bigger pair of pants so he could fit into them”
or “He bought a bigger pair of pants because he is very fat.”
or simply “He is very fat.”
Anyway, the burning question of the moment (discussion at work right now) is “Can you say ‘he is so fat’ and put a full stop after it?”
[quote]Why did Joe buy a bigger pair of pants?
“So he could fit into them”
or “Because he is very fat.”
Wouldn’t it be better to teach:
Why did Joe buy a bigger pair of pants?
“He bought a bigger pair of pants so he could fit into them”
or “He bought a bigger pair of pants because he is very fat.”
or simply “He is very fat.”
[/quote]
many native speakers answer questions with the short versions you’ve listed. i don’t know many that use the longer version … it’s important to not be verbose (ie repeating the question in an answer is usually unnecessary, as the questioner already has the context, having asked the question).
Absolutely. But is it good practise to encourage non-native speakers to use poor English? Yes, we can answer questions with the short versions, but if most of the language the student ever produces is an answer to a question then they get into the habit of always speaking as if they’re answering a question.
Then when they’re one day not answering a question they still start a sentence with because even though they don’t add a clause. Bad habits. Doesn’t it make more sense to teach students to answer in full sentences, and allow them to use the short forms only when they have acquired good habits?
xtrain’s point about knowing the context is important. A lot of the time students will expect you to figure out the meaning from the context, more so than is normal in English.
Q: Would you like some coffee?
A: No, I don’t like.
Allowing them to give short answers all the time does not teach them to explain themselves properly. It may be technically correct, or at least acceptable, coming from a native-speaker but it’s not promoting effective communication in a real setting.
Back to the original question. Is it OK to say “He’s so fat.” when “He’s very fat.” would communicate exactly the same thing, but also discourage them from using ‘so’ inapropriately?
Because he’s so fat. He looks very ugly.
Both of these examples seem a bit unwieldy taken in isolation. They should only be used in conjunction with more info that would make them appropriate, which allowing short answers does not teach.
She’s not attractive because her thighs are so chunky.
I wouldn’t date Deborah. Her thighs are so chunky she’d crush you at the critical moment.
I’m so glad I want to sing.
We were all so glad when Tom Hill left. We had a party.
PS ‘I am so glad about it!’ - you’ve been reading too many text books written by Chinese people if you think that’s good English. It’s horrible!
Absolutely. But is it good practise to encourage non-native speakers to use poor English? [/quote]
poor english? there’s nothing poor about it - it’s completely normal, unless you’re a strict prescriptivist.
have you read any of the research done on this topic?
no matter if they answer with the long version or the short version, they are still only getting practice answering questions. more productive is to give students opportunities to ask questions, and not simply through drilling.
there are times when it’s appropriate to start a sentence with “because”. in an EFL situation, acquiring “good habits” may take significant amounts of time - many students learn once a week, and have no outside english environment to use for additional listening/speaking practice. and how many good habits do they need before they can start to speak like the overwhelming percentage of NSs? further, they have no idea how to deal with anyone who doesn’t speak with “good habits” which again may well represent the majority of english speakers in the world. communication should be efficient, and using long versions of every sentence throughout a conversation will quickly become boring and tiring for both the speaker and the listener.
[quote]xtrain’s point about knowing the context is important. A lot of the time students will expect you to figure out the meaning from the context, more so than is normal in English.
Q: Would you like some coffee?
A: No, I don’t like.
[/quote]
this is a difference between what is acceptable in chinese grammar, versus what is acceptable in english grammer. it is not the same as the example above, what is perfectable acceptable in english. many students understand this if you point it out to them (provide some examples).
IMO, the honest truth is that most people here aren’t interested in communication - right now, results on the test are the goal, and there is no “effective communication” section on the test. until this becomes part of the test, speaking and listening skills will be neglected, as the focus is on “teaching to the test”. further, the majority of people studying english here aren’t headed to a NSing country - they use limited english in limited situations when the need arises. this is part of the reality of the EFL situation in the educational culture that exists here.
again, this is a commonly accepted way of using “so”.
i agree that students should initially be exposed to longer answers, but not for the reasons that you’ve listed. they should get some exposure to longer answers to see the way that answers (often) reverse the pattern of the question. this helps them in forming propoer questions. still, if we are talking about communicating, then i prefer to focus on the kinds of answers that the majority of english speakers use on a daily basis.
Sure they understand. But they don’t practise it enough to remember.
Same with starting a sentence with ‘because’. There are times when it is acceptable, and times when it isn’t. But if you NEVER do it, how often are you likely to be wrong?
Because it is raining, I brought my umbrella.
I brought my umbrella because it’s raining.
It’s raining, so I brought my umbrella.
They’re all OK, but the first allows students to do something that is potentially (and commonly) problematical. If you teach students to only answer using the second formats they’ll never say “Because it is raining. So I brought my umbrella.”
There are many ways to say what you want to say without running the risk of doing it wrong. In a limited exposure environment, where you don’t practise enough to make the distinction automatically, or even remember that you have to make a distinction, why not simply learn to avoid screwing up by learning the ‘safe’ routes until you reach a level where you try more complex stuff?
If students are taugh to never begin a sentence with ‘because’ then they will not make that one common mistake. And it won’t hinder their English at all, or their ability to pass the test.
Going back to “I don’t like,” you’re never going to make people stop imposing Chinese grammar onto the English language if you don’t start imposing English grammar onto it. I mean imosing simple rules that people can actually follow. Saying “we answer questions with sentences, and this is what a sentence is…” is a lot easier than producing a complex flowchart explaining what is permissible when.
Which do you prefer? Q: Why haven’t you finished your coffee?
A: Because I don’t like.
Or Q: Why haven’t you finished your coffee?
A: I don’t like coffee.
You can answer the question perfectly adequately without including the word ‘because’, as long as you remember to say what it is you don’t like. Or you can practise thinking in English and properly understanding how the word is used by forming an unnecessarily long and verbose sentence. Either way, the English they produce never runs the risk of being wrong.
Teach students to answer questions with sentences that could NEVER be wrong and they’ll never make mistakes. Teach them to explain that they don’t like coffee in a manner that is ALWAYS acceptable and it’s a lot easier to pass tests as well as to communicate in real life.
Is it OK to use ‘so’ to mean ‘very’, without a clause?
Questionable: You are so fat.
No argument: You are so fat you can’t wear jeans any longer, Mr Hill.[/quote]
It seems to me that you’re doing something that your students do that probably annoys you: asking for a black and white answer when there isn’t one. Of course the “questionable” example you give could be correct in certain contexts and when emphasis is given to the word “so.” I think you know that perfectly well. I doubt your students are using it that way. The best way to get this point across to them is by saying “You are so fucking stupid for using ‘so’ the way you do” every time they use it to mean “very,” but saying it in a context where it is inappropriate and in a tone that makes them sound stupid. The observant ones will get it sooner or later. The dorks won’t get it, and frankly, will deservedly sound like dorks when they continue to misuse the word.
Now that I think about it, your “You are so fat” is 100% authentic Chinese ESL student discourse, and has likely been told to damn near every non-anorexic foreign English teacher in Taiwan, HK or mainland China. It is not only contextually inappropriate to use “so” in this utterance, but it is also rare to hear a student emphasize the “so fat” in a way that might make it sound natural in other, more appropriate contexts. My suggestion is that you teach them to instead say: God damn, you’re a fat bastard.
or My god, you’re fat.
or for those who prefer indirectness Ya’ ain’t missed many meals, have ya?
Make sure they understand that if they continue to say “You’re so fat,” they will sound like morons. Laugh at them and tell them how absolutely fucking stupid they sound. At least your rudeness will have an educational purpose.
[quote=“tmwc”]
Teach students to answer questions with sentences that could NEVER be wrong and they’ll never make mistakes. Teach them to explain that they don’t like coffee in a manner that is ALWAYS acceptable and it’s a lot easier to pass tests as well as to communicate in real life.[/quote]
as above poster said, there may not be a black and white answer that will saitisfy you.
however, i do take issue with this. the influence of the L1 affects the acquisition of the L2 - you can’t just separate them by saying “this is the right way”. students make comparisons to their first language while forming hypotheses about new languages.
and your coffee example just doesn’t work - i’d wager that the majority of NSs would CORRECTLY answer the question “why haven’t you finished your coffee?” with “BECAUSE i don’t like coffee.”
“So” is used to show an effect. “Because” is used to show a cause.
It’s raining so the road is slippery. The road is slippery because it’s raining.
But “so” can also be used as an adverb to emphasize the degree of an adjective.
The roads are so slippery because it’s raining so hard.
“You’re right” is not as strong as “You’re so right”. And although it’s colloquial English, it’s not incorrect. Unless you’re training all of your students to be college professors. In that case, it would be alright to teach them to use “so” only as a conjunction.
PS ‘I am so glad about it!’ - you’ve been reading too many text books written by Chinese people if you think that’s good English. It’s horrible! :p[/quote]
I hardly agree to that old boy. That thought is so last year! What on earth is wrong with saying ‘I am so glad?’ tmwc CANNOT be British.
I’m less grumpy today. Apologies for being argumentative yesterday, and I appreciate the comments.
I think we’re slightly at cross purposes too. Are you talking about people who are learning English for the first time? I ‘teach’ intermediate-level adults, people who basically stopped learning years ago. They have, in some cases, been taking some kind of class for ten or fifteen years but are still thinking in Chinese. They can listen, understand, agree, discuss, complete worksheets and so on until everyone falls asleep. They’ll get the answers right and put the right words in the right places. But see them again a week later and they’ll make exactly the same old mistakes.
Old habits are hard to break, and the more thinking involved the harder it seems to be.
How do you cure cure people of bad habits? They’re able to understand what they’re doing wrong intellectually, but they’re not actually implementing what they’re learning, and they don’t generally have a lot of interest in practising it enough to get used to it. A simple rule like “don’t ever start a fucking sentence with ‘because’ unless you want me to ritually humiliate you in front of the whole class” seems a lot easier to enforce than asking them to constantly figure out when something is appropriate and when it isn’t.
Any better suggestions would be appreciated.
And Tom, we all know there are plenty of occasions when it’s acceptable to use ‘so’. The question is whether it’s OK to use it purely and simply to mean ‘very’ or ‘a lot’, without mention of any effect or result. I’ve never done it, and a quick search through a couple of ebooks didn’t turn up any obvious examples either. ‘So’ followed by an adjective generally seems to be used only when something is the result of something else - sometimes just implied, as in ‘That thought is so last year! (you’re out of date)’ - but I keep hearing it from students.
Is this just my imagination?
Is this a Brit v North American thing?
Or is it a Chinglish thing that most native speakers here are accepting because they haven’t bothered to think about it?
Enquiring minds (I’m in two minds about it now) want to know.
My new pet theory is that, as most Taiwanese never seem to think about the consequences of their actions, the whole concept of cause and effect is new to them. They don’t know when to use ‘because’ or ‘so’ because they’ve never been taught that things happen for a reason. Please take this with a pinch of salt, and I’ll try to avoid defending it as it’s mostly a joke.
