So WHY was mod lang banned?

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41

I’ve never met mod lang. At least, I don’t think so. But other forumosans may have. They may know ML in real life and they may even know him/her as ML. Now ML has done something so extreme as to be banned from Forumosa. What would justify our having to prolong this any further?

So you can learn what not to do? :unamused: I don’t understand that line of thinking, because remember, it takes some effort for you to get banned in the first place! [url=Forumosa's New Rules now, we have even made it really easy for you to avoid getting yourself unwittingly banned - we call the them Short Rules[/url]

“Getting unwittingly banned” – whew! what an absurd concept. If you’ve managed to get yourself suspended, then you probably knew you were close to crossing a line, and you will have certainly been warned about it by the relevant moderator.

And truant, you bring up the notion of “anonymity” in an Internet handle. Just how anonymous are you after you have logged some serious time on this website? After you’ve built up a following of people who look forward to / avoid your writing?? Sure, I often hear and read that some behave quite differently when they are online or offline - that their Forumosan identities “seem so different” from their real world identities. But can we assume that everyone is like this?

I heard that you went to the Taoyuan happy hour, so we know now that there’s at least one person who met you and now knows you as “the Forumosan named truant”. Something tells me that it wouldn’t be difficult for me to know quite a bit more about you from my buddy. Don’t worry, I still do not know anything about you (no offense, but I’m not THAT interested :wink:), and you don’t know squat about me (I hope) - but I think now you might agree that this anonymity thing in our community bit is just a little shakier. And if you do have a long history here on the website, you may not care for people to gossip and talk about you after you have decided to trash and burn your login ID

For me, not discussing what led to a banning is similar to not discussing what is passed along in Private Messages. It’s none of my business, unless you make it my business.

One more thing – it’s kinda funny. I’ve just realized that even I do not know why ML got banned (I’m not a member of the Star Chamber), although I certainly can look it up if I cared. But all I really care about is that at least 7 out of 11 moderators, all of whom I know do care enough about this website to commit themselves to being a part of the Star Chamber, have discussed it carefully and judged. 'nuff said

(Now I gotta get back to work :slight_smile:)[/quote]

Goose Egg, I appreciate your reply, and now this thread is unlocked again I’ll post this…

Personally, I don’t give a shit why Mod Lang was banned and I don’t want to know, but I am always interested in healthy debate and this was a topic I thought was interesting. I have a great deal of respect for you & Maoman, and am in now way digging at you guys.

Anyway, regarding anoymity and your example above. The way I see it, it is my choice to a) join this community b) disclose whatever I want about myself and c) make an appearance at HHs. So, I feel that if I then subsequently do something to make an ass of myself and break the rules, then it is my problem if people know who I am - but that is something I knew BEFORE I decided to be an ass. Just like in real life, if I go and harass someone that knows who I am, then I have to deal with the consequences of other people finding out. For me, having people know who I am has greatly enhanced my Forumosa experience.

[quote=“Goose Egg”]
And if you do have a long history here on the website, you may not care for people to gossip and talk about you after you have decided to trash and burn your login ID[/quote]
That is my whole point I believe. That’s what the mysterious banning is generating, not preventing - but it’s your call. Like I said, I personally don’t care, I just think there is some concern on the site that bannings have become more politically motivated rather than for simple rule transgressions - a view I don’t subscribe to btw, but I can see how all the perceived secrecy in a fairly open community can generate ill feeling.

Anyway, the bottom line is, I fully support the admins and mods and trust your judgement. If I should ever be so foolish as to warrant a banning, I sincerely believe that with-holding why I was banned to the rest would be graciousness I would certainly not deserve.

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[quote=“Maoman”]Hey, I have no problem unlocking the thread. I just felt that the discussion had run its course. Some people want to see who was banned and why. Some people don’t care. The Star Chamber moderators decided against it. I can’t speak for everyone, but I know what my reasons for voting against it are - I strongly suspect that people will want to “retry” every banned person’s case, without knowing all the facts. They can’t and won’t know all the facts because any offending posts are moved to the Flame Forum, which is viewed by the moderators only. This came to be only after many, many arguments were brought from flame forum into other forums, disrupting the quality of the experience for all. So, that’s a policy that’s not going to change any time soon…

Anyway, it’s a moot point. The eleven people responsible held a vote. The majority decided not to publicize bannings. What’s left to talk about? It’s already policy. And while we are a community-oriented website, we’re not governed by the masses. Goose Egg and I own the site. We like the way it is. It’s growing the way it is. We have the best moderators and the coolest happy hours. I’m spending my CNY camping with Forumosans from all over Taiwan, people I would not likely have met if it weren’t for this website. Enjoy all the good things this website has to offer. We’re sorry if there are some things that you don’t like. Feel free to offer your suggestions, but understand that we’re not always going to implement them. Because my hard-working moderators are volunteers, I’m going to listen carefully to them…[/quote]

I’m one of the Mods who thinks that it would be a good idea to announce in a locked thread the names of those who get banned with a short cite of the Rule transgressed that resulted in the ban.

However, even I find it difficult to argue with Maoman’s above post. And believe me, I do give Maoman heck from time to time.

43

In Evil Hour - Killed for a lampoon. Ohhhh the humanity

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I guess that means your going to have to post a bit of mediocrity to feel completely safe. Does not sound like the Truant I met at the happy hour!

I expect that is what the fuss is about. Making sure we know where the line is. Is the line moving around btw or static?

45

Na, not at all. To date I’ve ended up in the flounder forum a bit, but haven’t got close to a banning. I always like a good bit of banter around here and won’t hesitate to slam idiotic(IMHO) comments when they come my way(hell, I even make a few!) - but OTOH I enjoy helping out where possible too. I think that a balance is what it’s all about.

46

Bye bye. You lose another member. Even lying about why you lock threads. Must be spring cleaning come early.

Hey! Bullshit.

47

Just as a casual observer, and having read many of mod lang’s posts, I think he was an intelligent and engaging participant on forumosa.

Banning intelligent and engaging posters in my view is not a good strategy for any website. Especially, if that poster has no marked eccentricities that every man and his dog can see why they would be banned; for example, ABCguy24 and that animal Mai Long Dong :wink: .

In my view not revealing why detracts from the site, and having as a defence like it or leave it smacks of arrogance. If mod lang has done something so heanous as to have been banned such as breaking one of the rules (oh, no not the rules. He broke the rules!) we ought to be able to see why.

It is participation that makes forumosa a success not the rules they are just there to guide participation. mod lang up until the time he was banned contributed to that success.

The moderators might be a great bunch, and from my experience are, but that means zilch when it comes to protecting the integrity of a process. Saying it is not a democracy is the weakest defence on the block, because like it or not it is forumosa’s members that are the site. The star chamber would be a very lonely place if it it weren’t for the gazers. Transparency is important even if it is just the principle of the issue in this case. mod lang is already a loser for whatever his indiscretion was, but forumosa is the big loser, because it has found all it’s participants to be less than worthy- and that is soul destroying.

48

[quote=“Fox”]Just as a casual observer, and having read many of mod lang’s posts, I think he was an intelligent and engaging participant on forumosa.
[/quote]
I agree. I hope he finds a way to infiltrate this site again.
I don’t know why he was banned, but it seemed that he was in a funky mood about that time, judging by his posts. It was as if a multi-legged creature had crawled up his excretory orifice. I think he must have lost it and I hope he gets better.

49

I agree. When we say ‘he broke the rules’, we mean it was a serious offence. It was also the third time, and he’d been seriously warned about it. Same thing happened with ToeSave and MapoSquid. We don’t flippantly ban old members for minor infractions. Everyone gets a chance.

Brian

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Integrity is nonnegotiable.

You banned maposquid. :astonished:

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[quote=“Fox”]Just as a casual observer, and having read many of mod lang’s posts, I think he was an intelligent and engaging participant on forumosa.

Banning intelligent and engaging posters in my view is not a good strategy for any website. Especially, if that poster has no marked eccentricities that every man and his dog can see why they would be banned; for example, ABCguy24 and that animal Mai Long Dong :wink: .

In my view not revealing why detracts from the site, and having as a defence like it or leave it smacks of arrogance. If mod lang has done something so heanous as to have been banned such as breaking one of the rules (oh, no not the rules. He broke the rules!) we ought to be able to see why.

It is participation that makes forumosa a success not the rules they are just there to guide participation. mod lang up until the time he was banned contributed to that success.

The moderators might be a great bunch, and from my experience are, but that means zilch when it comes to protecting the integrity of a process. Saying it is not a democracy is the weakest defence on the block, because like it or not it is forumosa’s members that are the site. The star chamber would be a very lonely place if it it weren’t for the gazers. Transparency is important even if it is just the principle of the issue in this case. mod lang is already a loser for whatever his indiscretion was, but forumosa is the big loser, because it has found all it’s participants to be less than worthy- and that is soul destroying.[/quote]

Fox, extremely well written and passionate. I only hope that the powers that be are carefully considering this post.

:bravo:

=YC

52

Mr. Cartman,

Aren’t you one of the powers that be? Aren’t you a moderator?

Excuse me if I am mistaken.

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When I first read your post, Fox, I was nodding my head in complete agreement. And you can add my name to the list of people who will miss his posts as well. While we’re at it, I miss reading stuff from ToeSave and MapoSquid too.

But here’s another perspective to consider: I think it’s fairly easy for you and I (as users of the site and not moderators) to make the case for leniency. You or I can weigh the information, insight, laughs (at or with) that we get from a given poster, and balance it against what it costs us to keep them around. But the highest price we are likely to have to pay is the fraction of a second that it takes to scroll on past a poster we find offensive, or to click the ignore button. For the folks who have to deal with the complaining emails and PMs from offended/plaintiff users day after day, the cost seems certain to be much higher, especially when you consider that these folks have so much time to devote to refereeing the forums (presumably spending most of their time on their jobs, studies etc.)

Without knowing what they did, it’s impossible for us to know how to weigh the factors – but the one thing that I think we can know, is that the plus/minus calculation for any individual neutral user will almost always be biased in favour of the poster, relative to how the calculation would come out for the entire group (including the moderators).

:idunno: Tough subject. :s

54

[quote=“Aslan”]Mr. Cartman,

Aren’t you one of the powers that be? Aren’t you a moderator?

Excuse me if I am mistaken.[/quote]

Very pointed, and good, question Aslan.

I am a moderator. A “chosen” one to be sure – happened because someone suggested that I could be one and the Admins agreed to invite me on board to be one.

However, am I a “power that be”? No, I don’t believe so. In fact, this is a bone of contention I have with the Admins here. I have the power of suggestion, but I don’t have the power to enforce, enact, prescribe or authority to act on behalf of the site. However due to the new rules in force, I am prevented from talking about these sort of topics publicly. It is a bannable offense. In fact, one could argue that what I’ve posted here is already in violation (perhaps my second). :slight_smile:

We could take it via PM if you’d like.

EDIT: on behalf of the forum I moderate I do enforce the rules with respect to that. Other than that, everything else is pretty much regular member.

=YC

55

I haven’t posted here long enough to really understand what this thread is about.

Thank you for your kind offer but I think I will stay with non-confrontational threads. I don’t want to get anyone in trouble.

56

Yup. There also seems to be a misconception that we mods scour the boards day in and day out just waiting for the chance to jump on someone and propose a ban.
Not the case at all. It’s usually only when complaints start flooding in that we are likely to go to the trouble of setting up a discussion and banning scenario. If you look at it that way, it’s actually the community members themselves that set many of the bans in motion.
Remember, I’m the frigging Restaurants mod – hardly the hotbed of flames and insults. Nonetheless, I got more than 30 complaining PMs about Mod Lang in the space of a SINGLE 24-HOUR PERIOD, not from other mods but from other, discrete, regular posters.
I can only imagine how many the actual forum mod and Maoman got.
I have to answer those PMs. That wastes my time. Discussing and discussing his posts with the other mods wastes my time. Significant numbers of Forumosans were sufficiently pissed off to take the trouble of sending PMs about the issue, which wastes their time.
As mealy-mouthed as this sounds, I serve the community.

57

Good questions, Aslan. Let me add to YC’s reply.

He’s right, final policy decisions are made by the Administrators of the Forum. Decisions have always been this way. We try to be sensitive to the requests and views of the Forumosan community at large. Lord knows that the best, most useful parts of this website came not from the Admins, but from regular Forumosan regulars. Consider how new forums are formed these days: they are proposed and advocated (and eventually moderated) by regular Forumosan regulars.

But since we rely upon the goodwill and good-nature of the moderating team, I listen closest and hardest to them. I personally appreciate the time and attention they give. They certainly don’t do it for me. I haven’t even met them all in person! Heck, they do all that they do IN SPITE of me (an Admin) and because they have a sense of what is right, or cool, or just the way things should be on Forumosa :notworthy:

So, unlike regular Forumosan regulars, moderators indeed have a special role. And a special perspective. Or special power, if you will. YC and others see an awful lot more than you do. They are privy to the Star Chamber discussions, even though many of them cannot vote there. Because they have access to these discussions, and they even have access to our personal phone numbers, they are certainly in a better position to access the Admins, influence the Admins and guide the Admins.

Umm, do we actually expect them to do ALL of that to and for us? Heck, no! But if they sincerely want to propose a different and better way of thinking or doing things, they are in a far far better spot than a regular Forumosan regular.

Now, let’s not forget, this is a very diverse website - the moderators are very diverse, too. There is quite a bit of discussion, and an undoubtedly healthy slice of disagreement on our own team. I think browsing through this very forum (Feedback and Announcements), you will find many examples of where we try to listen to other points of view (from moderators and regular Forumosan regulars alike). I’m proud to say that we avoid (as much as possible) to remove posts (and members), especially posts that challenge us and voice disagreement, no matter how unfair or low-brow I (personally) may find them.

As an Admin, I do my best to listen to the arguments. And quite honestly, that isn’t enough. I don’t make enough time for Forumosa. (God bless you, Maoman) And hey, I wish I did. This website is a blast. This community is a blast.

So, what do I do? I rely on moderators to help cut the issues right to the bone, so I can make decisions with Maoman. Some mods are amazing this way (and I’ll confess to spending donation money to pay for a dinner or a brunch at Carnage for them so we can benefit from their expertise). I’ve learned to trust their judgement and analysis.

Others can’t be bothered (and that’s OK – remember, they do enough for all of us already, right?), and I’ve learned to take their counsel for what it is.

58

Mr. Sandman and Mr. Goose Egg,

Thank you for your very informative and kind replies. I didn’t realize how much effort the moderators and administrators put into this site. It all must very complicated.

59

Eh? EH? What? Where? When? Fuck! Was I sleeping again?

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Eh? EH? What? Where? When? Fuck! Was I sleeping again?[/quote]

Remember, sandman, he said “some mods are amazing”. :wink: Ohhh… I am in trouble now! :no-no: