quote:Originally posted by Jolie:
Culture schmulture! The kid was a brat and needed to be told to shut up. That he was Taiwanese or anything else has NOTHING to do with it.
Its about manners and courtesy.
Actually, culture has EVERYTHING to do with it, Jolie. Culture is the
quote[quote] world view [/quote] of a particular group of people. World view is another way of saying the way a person or group of people perceive reality,
Different cultures have various ideas about the nature of small children. Are they mentally competent individuals simply waiting for instruction? A culture with such an idea about small children would be exptected to discipline children from a very early age.
quote[quote] Spare the rod and spoil the child,[/quote] for example.
Other cultures might see small children as humans that are not yet mentally or intellectually complete and therefore not capable of receiving instruction. In such cultures, the parent tries to keep the small child from hurting him/herself or others, but any serious efforts to actually train the child would be seen as futile.
Taiwan, Japan and many other cultures have such views of small children. In Taiwan, I think the training starts at about age 7 or so.
Having said all that, whistles, or ear-shattering shrieks are generally beyond the pale. Parents who do not restrain their children from such behaviour usually get stink-eye from the other adults.
Another thing our various cultures teach us is whether to handle problems with other people directly, or to use an intermediary.
Direct confrontations definitely do not go down well in Asia. A good rule of thumb might be,
quote[quote]Either find a suitable intermediary, or just walk away from it. [/quote]
In this case, the obvious intermediary was the coffeeshop manager. If he/she were not willing to intervene, then you just walk away.
That is very different from what some other cultures might teach their members. And that is the great challenge in crossing cultures: Learning at first hand that the perceptions of reality I learned in my home culture are very different in many ways from the way the people in this culture see things.
Starbucks attempts to create a comfortable atmosphere so people can go in there and enjoy their high priced coffees. Screaming, badly behaved children are not a part of that idyllic picture. If the Manager was too wimpy to do it, I am glad one of the patrons was. Just because he/she didn’t have the guts to keep things pleasant, doesn’t mean that it is the Taiwanese culture. Its just the manager.
Ya, but in the eyes of Dad and his ten friends, Purpleflower was a cocky foreigner asserting his views onto them.
The third Taiwanese guy made it look a little better. But since Purpleflower was the first to confront Dad, I think all ten of those people will go home thinking negative, stinky thoughts about foreigners.
So, maybe those ten people are “hicks”, but they are Taiwanese “hicks” and in their eyes it was probably a “racial” or cultural issue. Like: “she’s a foreigner and thinks she knows better than us. Telling us what to do! Hmmph!”
Whether or not Purpleflower thought it was a racial/cultural issue didn’t affect how they felt.
Anyway, the third guy kind of saved the day in the end. But those 10 people might all have a negative feeling about foreigners now. Those cocky foreigners!
10 annoying parents, 1 horrible little bratt child, a wimpy manager - kind of makes you want to carry a can of pepper spray around with you doesn’t it?
quote:Originally posted by Jolie:
If the Manager was too wimpy to do it, I am glad one of the patrons was. Just because he/she didn't have the guts to keep things pleasant, doesn't mean that it is the Taiwanese culture. Its just the manager.
Re-reading the initial posting, I don’t see where the manager was brought into this situation. In some pro-active cultures such as the US, we might expect the manager to act without prompting. In a less confrontational society, the manager might be caught between offending that group of ten customers and some other customers.
If someone had complained to him, then he had an excuse. He could go to the offending parents and say something to the effect, “Sorry, but some of the customers are complaining about your child.”
Just because someone is not pro-active, assertive, or in-your-face does not necessarily mean that person is gutless or whimpy. It just might be that the person was socialized in a culture that values non-confrontation.
Well, that is why sometimes foreign management is needed. To pick up in situations like this - he was a M-A-N-A-G-E-R, being proactive and assertive goes along with the job description.
That’s not natural exuberance. It’s pure boredom. The kid’s inconsiderate father was ignoring him and he was amusing himself with the only toys he could find: his cup and his whistle. The father was the inconsiderate one here, not only to the other patrons of Starbucks, but to his own child, who had been taken to Starbucks so that his father could ignore him and read (or whatever). No kids’ books or quiet toys had been brought.
It amuses me that people can talk about the coldness of western parenting when they refuse to teach their children about respect to people outside of the family and school and then beat the same children for the same things things that western parents wouldn’t think of as “punishment material” such as trying their best on a test and not doing well. Punching other children in the face is OK, as long as their father isn’t your father’s boss as well, from what I’ve seen. I don’t think that children should be seen and not heard, and neither do most western cultures today. They (and I) do believe that children should know how to behave in public without disturbing others and that parents should have the good sense to choose venues that accomodate their children (how many children do you see in Starbucks anywhere, really? The ones I’ve seen have had books or toys with them). Contrary to some peoples’ opinions, most Taiwanese parents “get” this idea. This guy was just a jerk.
And as for being an obnoxious foreigner, a local man clearly shared your sentiment and chances are that the other patrons did, too. I wouldn’t have said anything to the father, I’m ashamed to admit, but I would have wanted to, just as I’m sure many of the patrons did. It WAS management’s job to do something, as I (and many others like me) just wouldn’t have gone back after such inconsideration. Many people, foreign and local alike, consider Starbucks a haven for quiet reading, discussion and just unwinding. I asked some of my coworkers about this and they said, “Yeah, the father was stupid”. That’s right, the coworkers are Taiwanese.
Daddy was acting like an idiot (and so was Junior, but this time it wasn’t his fault) and he lost a lot of face when you stood up to him. He lost that times a hundred when the angelic Taiwanese man defended you. On behalf of those who enjoy Starbucks, peace and tranquility, I salute you. If you had been registered, some guanxi would have been forthcoming…
I am curious as to what people think the ideal response would have been when confronted with this situation. I can sympathisize with the original poster, especially as I have been here for a long time and am at the point where I think that while I should respect the local culture and way of doing things, I still have a right to protest when they go 180 degrees against mine. I’m a person too - I have a right to not be woken up at 5:40 by neighbors using power tools, for example.
What would the ideal solution to this problem, other than asking the manager for help? Offering to buy the kid an icecream - ask the father first if he’d mind, as you’re trying to read and though perhaps his son was bored? A non-conforntonatioal way to say “shut the brat up”, and giving the father a ladder down from face-loss - “the foreigner is reading!”
This happened to me recently. I was in a quiet coffeeshop enjoying a super latte and reading the newspaper, when a nice family walked in and sat down at a nearby table, and their two kids began talking at a high volume, almost screaming, but they were just talking to mom and dad…
… and after a while, I just gently walked over to the table and put my fingers to my lips to signify SHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH! and I said in my best Chinese, “Didi, GErGer, this is a coffee shop! Be quiet here! This is NOT Maidonliao!”
And then I looked pleadinly yet sternly at mom and dad and said the same thing. then I smiled and walked back to my chair. The kids kept screaming, although mom and dad were now squirming. Point made, nothing accomplished. This is Taiwan!
Formosa, obviously the parents should have kept their children’s voices at a reasonable level. Still, I don’t see that addressing the kids directly is the correct thing to do. If I had been the father in that situation I would have told you in no uncertain terms that you shouldn’t go around reprimanding other people’s children. If you have a problem with the kid’s behavior you should address the parents, not the kids.
It is a big nono here to start correcting other peoples kids. Go to the parents instead. If they refuse, then try management. I fthey refuse, then feel free to go after the kids.
This might be a generalization but I would also support the opinion that most parents don’t really care and can’t be bothered what their kids or don’t do. Been in Asia for a long time and comparing it to Europe they do misbehave and parents usually do not educate them, like the kid taking some sweets into his hands and the dad takes it away putting it right back into the container (you knwo those shops / stands where you use a spoon and put the sweets into a platic bag, i.e. they are not individually wrapped). Or at the supermarekt they kids takes something from the shelve and drops it on the floor while the parents pretend they didn’t see it. Seen a lot of those incidents.
This is not about the Western way or raising your children being better, but different, and we perceive it as being the correct thing to do.
Then there are those Westeners, usually more outspoken and direct, not afraid to confront the other party. While I assume that most locals, including the management (correct me if I am wrong), will not make the first move; a Westener will not be afraid to stand up, go over there and say what he/she thinks.
Naturually you will be perceived as “the foreigner” as it is not expected from someone of the same culture to do this.
That said I would hope that the parents will show some understanding and consideration to the situation, but if not you should try to avoid any conflict. Don’t forget you are just a guest here, so in same cases you need to accept that you have to “back off” and can’t get what you want.
Both Jeff and Mr He wrote above that addressing the kids directly is a big no no here in Taiwan. Thanks for the heads up. I usually follow custom wherever I go, but in this case, I always talk directly to the kids. It works. They’re people, too. They are the ones who are trespassing normal human social boundaries and they need to learn this. But I always smile and talk gently to them, not to scold them but to make them see the light. Forget the parents, they are beyond redemption! [added later: Ditto rascal above, right on!]
Guess what, it works, sort of. Treat kids like real people and they will respond like real people. Sometimes.
Even if it doesn’t work, I feel better after I talk directly with them at their own level. And then I try to zap them with my Zorp ESP mental telepathy powers and make them shut up. They same to be on a different wavelength than my Zorp Zapper, so it hardly ever works.
I don’t know if the locals think it appropriate or not, but I always talk directly to the kids. I’m a teacher, I’ve been a teacher for many years, so it’s hard NOT to talk directly to the little darlings when they need to be told to shut up, give a seat to an elderly person on the bus, or whatever. The universal “didi” or “meimei” form of address is completely useful for this kind of thing too (or, for older ones, “tongxue”), and if you’re foreign-appearing, I think you already have the pseudo-sociolinguistic stamp of “teacher authority” by appearance alone.
Of course if you’re going to pull “teacher authority” you should do so with “teacher responsibility” – i.e., address the kid gently (at least the first three or four times!! :shock: ), use appropriate language either in English or Chinese, and always do so for the child’s ultimate benefit, education and convenience.
In the States the catch-phrase we could always use to bring parents around to our way of thinking was “I know we all want to teach the children responsibility”. Few parents could argue with that one. The difference is that in Taiwan, I can address children up to like 20 years old directly without fear of a knife in the guts; in the States that ends about with the four year olds.
But you’re not my kids’ teacher. A parent is responsible for his or her childrens’ behavior and it is up to the parent, not a total stranger, to educate them on appropriate behavior when they’re out of line. In a classroom setting where you really are the teacher, then it’s obviously okay to discipline your students. But in a public setting such as Starbuck’s the parent is the authority figure. Reprimanding a child directly implies that you think the parent doesn’t know how. This has never happened to me, so I don’t know how I would react if someone reprimanded my kid(s) in front of me, but it wouldn’t be pleasantly.
Kids often get tired of their parents’ nagging about “sit still”, “be quiet”, “eat your food”, “don’t run around” etc. etc., and they end up ignoring it.
So, if a stranger comes over, and friendly points out for the kids that they should slow down, be more quite or not run around, it would be appreciated, because a stranger represent more authority than the nagging parent(s).
So, please do not hesitate to intervene when you see us parents trying to restrain our kids, without success. The kids may get surprised/shocked/scared, but they will get the point as a 3rd party has taken the parents’ side.
[quote=“X3M”]Kids often get tired of their parents’ nagging about “sit still”, “be quiet”, “eat your food”, “don’t run around” etc. etc., and they end up ignoring it.
So, if a stranger comes over, and friendly points out for the kids that they should slow down, be more quite or not run around, it would be appreciated, because a stranger represent more authority than the nagging parent(s).
So, please do not hesitate to intervene when you see us parents trying to restrain our kids, without success. The kids may get surprised/shocked/scared, but they will get the point as a 3rd party has taken the parents’ side.[/quote]
But if you’re going to be a rude prick about it then stay the hell away from my table
Agree!
No “rude pricks” please, only friendlies adressing the kids directly in a kind tone, and only when the parents are close enough to hear what is said.[/quote]
