STARBUCKS: Coffee Shop or Kindergarten?

Discussion Open Forum
41

I agree! No pricks.*

*People who reprimand my kids in front of me without so much as a by-your-leave are, by definition, pricks.

Jeff

PS: “This is not McDonalds.” I know you didn’t mean it this way, but how would you react if you ordered a hamburger in a nice restaurant and the waiter said, “Excuse me sir, try again. This is not McDonalds.” The implication is that you don’t make it off the farm (or at least out of the fast food arena) very often.

P(M)S: BH, that could be part of the problem. I haven’t had any form of nicotine in 2 days!

42

Fair enough, parents. However, I would hope that you would be more obliged to take your kids to McDonald’s than Starbucks.

This is off topic, maybe needs a new thread, but what worries me more than kids running around Starbucks is toddlers running around dark, sleazy bars in Taiwan at 3 am, as I’ve seen so many times here, even very recently. My first instinct is to either cry or kidnap the child and take them somewhere safe.

Too bad none of the English papers or Taipei Review show the world full-color pictures of toddlers running from table to table at a smoky bar while their parents get sh*t-faced. Any idea what to do? (And please no debate on whether you should talk to the parents or chilldren first.)

43

[quote=“Flicka”]Fair enough, parents. However, I would hope that you would be more obliged to take your kids to McDonald’s than Starbucks.

This is off topic, maybe needs a new thread, but what worries me more than kids running around Starbucks is toddlers running around dark, sleazy bars in Taiwan at 3 am, as I’ve seen so many times here, even very recently. My first instinct is to either cry or kidnap the child and take them somewhere safe.

Too bad none of the English papers or Taipei Review show the world full-color pictures of toddlers running from table to table at a smoky bar while their parents get sh*t-faced. Any idea what to do? (And please no debate on whether you should talk to the parents or chilldren first.)[/quote]To Flicka:
I am with you all the way regarding kids in pubs/bars (or anywhere for that matter) late at night. When you see it, talk to the owner/manager of the place, and ask if they don’t have any age-limit (should be 18y or so I think). If he/she does not take action, point out the problem to the people around you, and enourage them to go somewhere else (taking the business away).
However, one if the many things I love about Taiwan is the general acceptance of bringing kids to your favorite restaurant/cafe, even if the place is upscale.

44

Strange – it used to be totally acceptable for ANY elder to correct ANY junior member of society (this is Chinese to Chinese of course), and that was not all that long ago either. Today the elders just keep quiet, try to stand up on the carreening buses, and wonder why the kids don’t have any manners.

45

[quote=“jeff”]A parent is responsible for his or her children’s behavior and it is up to the parent, not a total stranger, to educate them on appropriate behavior when they’re out of line. In a classroom setting where you really are the teacher, then it’s obviously okay to discipline your students. But in a public setting such as Starbuck’s the parent is the authority figure. Reprimanding a child directly implies that you think the parent doesn’t know how. This has never happened to me, so I don’t know how I would react if someone reprimended my kid(s) in from to me, but it wouldn’t be pleasantly.
[/quote]

Good point, but if the parents aren’t doing their job, why should everyone else suffer? Perhaps if the parents are too busy drinking coffee to pay attention to their own children and the disruption said children are causing, they DESERVE to lose face. And any parent who takes a toddler to a bar deserves to have his/her face FALL OFF.

46

I, for one, am hyperallergic to loud, ill-mannered, rampaging kids, though I dote on the ones that are quiet, respectful, and endearingly guai.

While I’ve seen improvements on many fronts during my 17 years in Taiwan, the most pronounced and disturbing (in more than one sense) change for the worse has been in the behaviour of kids. Having been brought up in harsh times under strict discipline, those who have become parents in Taiwan’s age of affluence have gone to the opposite extreme, abandoned discipline entirely, spoiled their kids rotten, and created an army of appalling little monsters who are going to wreak more and more havoc as they get older.

When I first arrived here, I was struck by how remarkably well-behaved most kids were; for the last dozen years, I’ve been struck by how remarkably obnoxious and out of control so many of them are. There are still parents who know how to raise their children correctly and responsibly, but they seem to become a smaller minority with each passing year.

If parents do not fulfil their social responsibility to ensure that their children conduct themselves in an appropriate manner in public places, then others need to and ought to do it for them. I totally agree with what Ironlady said and approve of her way of dealing with wayward children. If you lack Ironlady’s authoritative bearing and are not able to carry it off as well as she does, then it’s probably better to say something to the parents (if they’re around) rather than directly to the kids. I generally avoid doing either of those, because my dislike of any kind of confrontation is almost as great as my horror of delinquent brats – but I project my disapproval in no uncertain terms with pointed, sometimes daggerish, looks. Occasionally the message gets across and a parent makes an effort to put the offending kid or kids right.

The last time I went to England, I was astonished at the quietness, politeness, and immaculate behaviour of my nephews and nieces, aged from two to ten years old. The contrast with the way I see kids behaving every day in Taiwan was almost surreal. If my brother and sisters can achieve such results, surely most of the parents here should be able to do so too – with or without the helpful interference of others.

Tomorrow I am going to my girlfriend’s home to meet her parents for the first time. What I am dreading most of all is that her sisters’ kids will be there as well, including a couple that my girlfriend confesses are horribly spoilt. I’m not sure I’ll be able to handle that very well.

47

That’s true everywhere… :frowning:

48

I completely agree that children should be taught consideration of others and to behave appropriately in various environments. Now if you’re sitting in a nice cafe and some kneebiter keeps running past your table blowing his whistle in your ear, say something. Or if the parents aren’t around, sure, admonish away. But if the situation is like Formosa described (…a nice family walked in and sat down at a nearby table, and their two kids began talking at a high volume, almost screaming, but they were just talking to mom and dad… ), talk to the parents, not the children. And try to avoid heavy condescension, especially in front of the parents:
(… and after a while, I just gently walked over to the table and put my fingers to my lips to signify SHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH! and I said in my best Chinese, “Didi, GErGer, this is a coffee shop! Be quiet here! This is NOT Maidonliao!”).

Now if the parents don’t respond to your request for good manners, all bets are off.

49

I confess to taking my kids into Starbucks a few times, but it’s usually for a quick bite to eat, or a snack. Getting a seat by a window, especially on an upper floor makes it easy to keep a kid entertained (Look at all the cars and people!) but I usually have a stash of little trinkets to pull out when needed. Even a pen and napkin can keep them occupied for enough time to have a sandwich and roll.

I agree with what most posters have said. Starbucks is not McD’s, but it’s not fine dining either. The parents were responsible for the kid’s boredom, but as a parent myself, I can empathize with them. Even I forget to bring toys along once in a while, maybe it wasn’t his idea to go there (maybe he did know “better”, maybe the other parents were old friends that they haven’t seen in ages and they were so excited to catch up, they didn’t notice the little boy trying to entertain himself. IMO, tapping a paper cup on the window and pacing is not annoying but I’m sure the whistle-blowing was. Is it possible the parents didn’t notice, and might have a few minutes later?

I’m not always so understanding, but I do have kids with very, very different temperaments.

Some people have mentioned kids who are so “well-behaved”. We all have different ideas of good behavior. Some people think sitting with hands in your lap and not speaking until spoken to is good behavior. Others are able to recognize “bad behavior” for what else it might be: boredom, fatigue, anxiety, maybe needing some one-on-one time, and dealing with it appropriately.

My personal feeling is that it’s never really “bad” behavior (unless you’re 14 and thinking about blowing up your high school). Kids, especially younger kids, have a hard time expressing themselves, so they tend to act out what they’re feeling.

Jeff has said that he would never tolerate anyone speaking to his child that way. There are ways to speak to or distract a child (if you feel you absolutely must). I tend to say ‘sweetheart’, ‘honey’ and ‘sweetie’ a lot. That can keep a kid from feeling embarassed, angry, defensive (and the parents might not mind it too much). Sometimes a preoccupied parent (trying to fish money out of her bag to pay a cashier for instance) really does appreciate a stranger trying to help distract or calm a child, if it’s done with good intentions, and you can tell a person’s intentions by the tone of voice and words they use. It also helps to get down to their eye level. Imagine how frightening a 6’4" white dude must look to a little 4 year old. I always notice when a person who is not all that familiar with children kneels down to talk to a child–I think it’s a great show of respect. (I’ll try to remember that next time I’m washing dinner dishes and yelling, “Get into the bathtub NOW! 5, 4, 3…”)

My 69 cents.

Lastly, if that had been me (purple flower?) I would have bought some cookies or other snack at the counter and offered one to the child (and maybe a seat next to his parents.)

50

Sure, speaking to or distracting a kid to help out a harried parent is fine, but not directly reprimanding as the above poster seemed to do.

51

I agree Jeff, the comment wasn’t directed at you.

52

Ditto on alerting the management when this type of problem pops up.

Problem is, though, that the managers at most western-style restaurant/shops in Taipei are likely to be complete airheads on the concept of service, atmosphere, or food. They’re also totally spineless on the issue of upholding standards, especially if that means actually confronting a customer who’s ruining it for the other customers.

It’s ironic that Starbucks pours so much revenue and effort into their “experience” (the colors, the music, the decor, the furniture) only to have the local managers totally abdicate their control over their shop to idiot parents like the kind described.

53

My opinion is that children should be seen everywhere and heard everywhere when appropriate. They should learn at an early age the behavior that is expected of adults when they are around adults. Starbucks is a place for adults. Despite their kid’s menu, it’s still a place for adults to gather. There is no Starbucky’s Playland in Starbucks for a reason: it’s not a family entertainment center. If you are going to bring children to an establishment that caters to adults then they should have already had guidelines set out for them of what is expected and appropriate behavior. There is a line between kids being kids and having expectations for your child’s behavior. If scalding hot liquids at every turn isn’t enough to keep your kid from being a nuisance at a coffee shop then what’s to stop them from the same behavior at a funeral where it’s safer for them to run around? You wouldn’t want them to act that way at school or in the car so why not have limits on when it’s okay to run around and play physically and when it’s necessary to keep your play at a quiet level with limited play space? It’s a lesson that’s essential to their social and cognitive development and ability to fit into society even at the age of three.
I’d believe you sn_chen on your criticizing of Western discipline except I don’t know of anyone in my social circles growing up who were sent to boarding school and a lot more Taiwanese children per capita are not even raised by their parents, but rather by household help. I have seen parents who couldn’t deal with their children emotionally here and so to substitute for good parenting and actually putting limits on their kids they let them run around and do whatever they wanted. That’s not good parenting. That’s called bribery.
I’d rather have the philosophy that children should be seen and not heard than that children are trophies to be shown off and take so many lessons to the point of passing out during them and forced to study/practice/do homework at the threat of physical and psychological punishment so they will be brighter than other parents’ trophies.

54

There’s a middle ground in there somewhere, right? That’s where you’d find me.

55


Maoman’s Guide to Raising Children:

[quote][color=blue][ul][li]
Children should speak (to adults) when spoken to.[/li][li]They should address their elders respectfully and be spoken to with respect.[/li][li]They should be taught the words “Please”, “Thank-you”, “Excuse Me” and “May I…”.[/li][li]They should have early bedtimes.[/li][li]They should not eat whatever they want, whenever they want.[/li][li]They should have limited amounts of TV.[/li][li]They should not be brought to movies not intended for them.[/li][li]They should be admonished (and possibly punished) when they break the rules, and praised when they behave well.[/li][li]They should be taught to love reading (and not just comic books!).[/li][li]They should learn to get along with their peers.[/li][li]They should be allowed lots of time for free play, especially outdoors.[/li][li]They should have a pet.[/li][li]They should have a spending allowance that is fairly rigid - when they’ve spent it, it’s gone.[/li][li]When they’re brought into “adult” situations, i.e. church, coffee shops, concert halls, auditoriums, they should be provided with quiet means of entertainment (paper and pencils). [/li][/ul]I’m sure there’s more, but that’s it for now…
[/color] [/quote]

56

I can’t disagree with a word of that, Maoman. It’s pretty much the rules by which I was raised and would hope to raise any kids I might have in the future. Of course, the outdoor play bit, which is enormously important, is a lot easier to put into practice if you’re lucky enough to be living in the countryside.

57

Ironlady, I am with you. I was at the Museum of Oceanography outside of Hengchun or Kenting…whatever, and a group of children were pounding very hard on the glass of an aquarium with some toys trying to get a scuba diver’s attention. I looked around for an adult that might have been with them and of course there was none, so I turned to them and say, “Nimen bu keyi.” They looked at me in shock because 1) they didn’t notice the hei waiguoren next to them until that point, 2) a foreigner spoke to them in Mandarin, and 3) it was probably the first time someone had told them something that gave them a limit that day. Sure they weren’t in danger of breaking the glass seeing as it was at least three inches thick, but if in a different situation it could have been. I love children and they had every right to be a kid in that place, but even if that were a place built just for kids they still need supervision and guidance for appropriate behavior. Using objects, even just your fists, to pound on glass is inappropriate. If their chaperones had been present, I would have given them the teacher’s look and would have asked them if they could tell the kids not to do it. Seeing as they weren’t, I went straight to the source. In America, I probably would have been affronted with a “You’re not my mom.” to which the only proper responses would be “You’re right. I’ll go find her and see what she thinks of your behavior.” or “You’re right, but neither is that security guard who would be more than happy to tell both you and your mom to leave if you keep it up.”
Now does anyone know how to say all that in Mandarin?

I have little tolerance for disresect from children because if you allow it at an early age, they will keep it up at a worse rate as they get older. I have even less for parents who think that taking your kids out and ignoring them is called spending time with them. Just because you’re in the same place…:imp:

58

Imani,

I think you handled that situation well.

59

Can i add a quick rule to Maoman’s list…?

They should not be allowed unlimited access both in scope or time to either video games (of any kind) or the Internet (in any of its guises).

I know of too many kids who have too much time with machines and not enough time working on their intellectual/social/emotional/creative etc skills.

IMHO.
Kenneth

60

Another thought…

It seems pretty common here to include kids in outings to places that aren’t really suitable for families anyway, and don’t have the facilities to cope, such as expensive restaurants (I have had nice meals in expensive restaurants spoiiled by noisy kids). I’m not blaming anyone here, but I just wouldn’t think of taking a kid to a place like Ruth Chris’ steakhouse (only once! :slight_smile:).

It’s odd, but parents do include children much more in that kind of activity; and I’m not sure if it’s always a good thing either. Parents do need space from their kids, if only to keep themselves sane!

My 2C$
Kenneth