You mean I should write something you want to hear!? Nope.
If my earlier answer wasn’s clear than let me rephrase: I would have taken the same measures to protect the museum as those which were taken to protect the oil ministery and other ‘more important’ places where the US had an interest in to protect them and managed to do just that.
I don’t think you are looking at this from a military standpoint.
My understanding is that the supply lines and troops were enough to do the job and little else. Oil can be sold to feed people, generate electricity, and sold for cash. Antiquities, though important historically can only be looked at and studied.
If I was the CO in charge, my attitude would of been screw the antiquities. It would of been to much of a quagmire. Seeing my troops spread out and divided with vunerable supply lines in a country full of enemy soldiers dressed as civilians and/or from other arab countries. I would of made the same decision. Worse case secenario, what if US troops looted the museum? This would of been a political disaster. Under the conditions presented, the right decision was made for the right reasons, IMO. Iraqi troops had studied modern warfare tactics from Somalia and Vietnam. They were able to turn back a group of Apache attack helicoptors with infantry, using Vietnamese tactics. They weren’t going to roll over and die. They were looking to attack the most vulnerable parts possible.
Cultural antiquities were never part of the mission parameter. Defending those museums with US troops had the possibility of a political disaster happening. What if one of those squads sent to defend Iraq’s antiquities had been captured, tortured and broadcast on Al-Jazeera? How would this affect American opinion towards the Middle East, Arabs, and Muslims in general? The possibility of US troops looting the museums, would of inflamed an already angry Arab population in neighboring countries and led to charges/evidence that the Americans were no more than imperialists and looters.
The right decision made for the right reasons at the right time. Saddam had a lot of time to prepare for the possible invasion. How many of those antiquities did he and his henchmen take?
CYA
Okami
[quote=“Rascal”]
You mean I should write something you want to hear!? Nope.
If my earlier answer wasn’s clear than let me rephrase: I would have taken the same measures to protect the museum as those which were taken to protect the oil ministery and other ‘more important’ places where the US had an interest in to protect them and managed to do just that.[/quote]
Why? Was the museum a military objective? Did it have any significance militarily? (BTW, you gave the the exact answer I expected to hear. 
)
US forces entered Baghdad understrength because the 4th Infantry Division was held up by our gallant allies, the Turks. US troops were in combat in Baghdad and were more concerned with seizing vital centers of communications, power and transport. (And, YES, the oil ministry is important. Where do you think the money is going to come for feeding the Iraqi people?)
Some of the postings here remind me of Hitler’s ranting during the last days of WWII. Ordering non-existent divisions here and there with no understanding of the reality of the situation. But then, that’s what’s great about the internet…any yahoo with a computer and modem can be an “Armchair Feldmarschall” and tell everyone what HE would do if only HE were in command. 
Mucha Man
Tsk tsk. It’s not fucking yanks. It’s stupid yanks.
Okami.
They could easily have sent a few tanks and did just that but for only a few hours. As a seriously important world heritage site and a site of great significance for Iraqis and Arabs the US SHOULD have risked lives for that museum and sent a patrol as they had been requested (of course it should have been part of their battle plan from the start as was repeatedly requested of them from many sectors). If the US is willing to risk lives for oil fields and oil ministries but not for items that are not directly significant to the US they should follow the consequences of that. To win the battle and lose the war by not risking lives when it is required is hardly a good result. Can anyone say the war in Iraq is finished until the US army withdraws? If the mood of the people turns against occupation the US will certainly lose the war, the objective being ,from a US standpoint, to install a friendly secular regime under the influence of the US.
It didn’t need an infantry division to stop the looting. It seems that it was basically a mob and some organised thieves who looted it so I fail to see how they could have got past a couple of tanks. If they had to shoot some people so be it…the Iraqis and the world would have thanked them for it. They sure shot a lot of people in cars who got close to their checkpoints so it doesn’t seem to have been that much of an issue. If a couple of US soldiers died they would have died for a good cause (I think this scenario is very unlikely) I thought the US had special forces all over Iraq? They seem to be pretty adept at picking Iraqi government personnel.
I believe this story is going to keep running however…were there more forces at play than people realise…was a corporal or someone lower down in the chain of command paid off. A quick word and a whisper to keep their troops out of a district for a day or so. The solider doesn’t have to say directly …keep troops out of there. They could just say ‘I’ve heard that areas too hot to handle’ or ‘we need these men in some firefight in another area’. It may even have been explained to them they could go about it in this manner. How could you prove anything? A soldier’s salaries isn’t a lot for all that aggravation and risk. Lots of us have seen Three Kings. This suggestion is not that ridiculous. Art collectors and dealers had been lobbying Bush for a relaxation of laws governing antiquities and the tracing of such purchases before the war. Many of the items looted were worth millions of dollars, perhaps 10s of millions , even on the black market. A 5000 year old silver harp. A giant bronze head of a king from 7000 years ago weighing hundred of kilograms was professionally removed. These items would be a billionaire art collector’s dream and a once in a lifetime opportunity. They could NOT be bought. Ever. The dealers would have contacted previous people who purchased stolen art from them. It’s highly likely that a shopping list had been drawn up beforehand and circulated to their clients. Then it was a small matter of paying some ready cash to some hard up security guards for copies of the keys and waiting for their opportunity. If the gangs were so organised to do this to order they could certainly have done more.
Was that money spread around for a couple of people to turn a blind eye?
US Army…cowboys and grunts.
[quote=“headhonchoII”]Mucha (Muzha) Man
Tsk tsk. It’s not fucking yanks. It’s stupid yanks. [/quote]
Fuck you.
Ah…about what I expected, your opinions on military operations are based on George Clooney (Looney) movies and maybe “Kelly’s Hero’s”. 
About what I expected.
Fuck you 2.
I stand by my assertion US Army : Cowboys and Grunts until proven otherwise. From your statements I can see you were eminently qualified to be a member. I previously knew a member of one of the special forces units who subsequently worked Taiwan, trained to be a sniper. To kill people he didn’t know and he didn’t even know why he was killing them. Dropped into central american countries with names he probably couldn’t even pronounce. What is your definition of a grunt?
Your mother thought so. 
Keep grunting you ugly american
That’s your mom you hear.
You are your own worst propaganda. I like that. Pronounced Prop-A-Gan-Da.
Tanks are useless without infantry and vise versa. They are far more effective together than seperately. How many sites are we talking about here? How many tanks were in Baghdad? Oil is paying for the reconstruction of Iraq. You need the engioneering blueprints to keep the oil pipelines running and maintained. The antiquities are nice to look at, but life goes on. You haven’t refuted any of my arguments for not protecting them, but have just talked past them as if you haven’t read them.
If these were organized looters, couldn’t it follow they were or had gov’t connections/officials helping them? How effective would those tanks have been had the looters used the Russian-made Kornet anti-tank missiles instead of the less effective RPG’s? Remember how the US was in a spat with Russia over those missles being supplied through Russian companies? Organized criminal looters would of been better equipped and organized than most militias, especially as you point out the take/swag/loot was counted in the millions of dollars.
In the US and I know this hard for a lot of people to understand. Anybody can lobby any gov’t. official for anything. This does not however mean that the gov’t. official will bend over and do exactly what the person lobbying wants done. There are competing interests. If you wanted to pick on a country infamous for a black market in other countries antiquities, you should have used Japan. The US laws are sufficient and I haven’t seen or heard of any being changed to help out art collectors.
Special forces soldiers are a very small force used all over the world. There are less than 10,000 of them. A sufficient force of them are also working in Afghanistan. What are you going to tell the Afghanis? Sorry, but antiquities are more important than rooting out armed bandits and members of the Taliban and Al-Qaeda?
The world has not thanked the US at all. I’ve only seen sniping and ignorance. How do you explain the UN sanctions not being rescinded, though there isn’t a clear need for them now. You have Arab gov’ts wanting the US out of Iraq as quickly as possible. They have a very real interest in keeping a non-democratic state without freedom of religion as their neighbor.
Listen when other countries go past their bruised pride and make an effort to work within the current framework. They’ll have influence. There is a very clear need for help putting the country back together, forming a legal system, investigating war crimes, setting up a working economy and security. Where are they? The non-military aid and personal from say France, Canada, or Russia?
Okami
You like to be a prick but you can’t take it when it flies back in your face. Tough. Now run on back home and cry to Mommy that the big boy hurt your feelings. WHACK! That was the sound of my newspaper on your pitiful rear end.
I’m afraid you’d be the one doing the running. You dont hurt my feelings. You can insult my mother which is fairly basic stuff but I guess your own mother didn’t care much for you to use that sort of thing. You simply make the world a worse place with your presence, there’s an umistakeably bitter odour wafting from your direction which people would seek to avoid. You are like a place where the sun never shines. Are you over the hill?
You like to be a prick but you can’t take it when it flies back in your face. Tough. Now run on back home and cry to Mommy that the big boy hurt your feelings. WHACK! That was the sound of my newspaper on your pitiful rear end. [/quote]
And you’ d get my head go through your face… 
Since you seem to have your head firmly wedged up your ass, that’ll be quite a feat.
People People. Can’t we all just get along and love one another (preferably again and again until we run out of cigarettes?)
hahahaha
I vote for moving this part of the thread to the playground quarrel forum.
Come on boys, this “I’m going to beat you up” banter is the stuff of Taiwanese television (and the legislature). You’re better than that 
.
Awwww! He started it! (I’m shuffling my feet trying not to look embarrassed!)
[[i]quote=“Okami”][quote]They could easily have sent a few tanks and did just that but for only a few hours.[/quote]
Tanks are useless without infantry and vise versa. They are far more effective together than seperately. How many sites are we talking about here? How many tanks were in Baghdad? Oil is paying for the reconstruction of Iraq. You need the engioneering blueprints to keep the oil pipelines running and maintained. The antiquities are nice to look at, but life goes on. You haven’t refuted any of my arguments for not protecting them, but have just talked past them as if you haven’t read them. [/i]
I see what you are saying but a couple of tanks outside the front door would surely have been worth it?
Life goes on but everybody is a bit worse off … the engineers would figure out that oil stuff eventually but these items can’t be replaced. They are a link to our past. A lot of people don’t care about them but a lot of people do care too. If looters ran away with the Book of Kells or Ardagh Chalice in Ireland peoples heads would roll…because these are well known treasures and tangible links to our past. Simply irreplaceable.
The guys in the tank could stand on top of the tanks with a couple of machine guns and hey presto…no looters. The looters would know it would be suicide to attack them. As you said only very determined people with access to high tech weapons could attack and even then they wouldn’t be assured of success.
I just think it’s strange that it wasn’t factored at all into the battle plans for Baghdad, a battle plan that’s probably been doing the rounds for more than 12 years in one form or another. I believe the act of not protecting the museum is symbolic of a cultural ignorance to the rest of the world that extends high up in the leadership chain of the US and clearly signposts their priorities. War is messy too so I give some leeway to that but the lack of response from people from Rumsfeld is indicative of more than messiness.
They knew not to bomb important archaelogical sites yet when it came to risking soldier’s lives and oil ministries there was no question which came first. American lives would not be risked for cultural artifacts which are not important to Americans in general.
Well, you just exhibited your complete ignorance of the United States and art. Thank you very much. The US, and New York City in particular, has been the world’s art center since WWII. Whether it be publishing, music, dance, etc, the US leads the world. Even in art preservation, the US is number one. Go to the Taipei Fine Arts Museum and see what materials they use for preserving their collection. Archival boxes, matt board, plastic sleeves for photographs, etc…they all come from the US. No one else in the world cares enough to manufacture them.
May I suggest you actually go to the US and visit some of the galleries and museums? Perhaps Santa Fe, New Mexico? It has more galleries per capita than any city in the world. You might even see some real cowboys!