Stop the looting in Iraq

Politics International Politics
41

Well my dear, that’s a completely new set of questions. Earlier you asked how and I think that has been clearly answered.
And if it wasn’t a military objective it should have been declared as one, instead of the Al Jazeera broadcasting studio or the Palestine hotel perhaps. :smiling_imp:

Instead of asking “why” I think “why not” would actually be more accurate: It would not have taken much resources - and I don’t think you need special forces for that - to protect it and there have been reports that US soldiers, present at certain sites, have turned a blind eye to looters or even encouraged them. While I personally couldn’t care less of people steal some chairs and tables the art stuff is certainly a totally different thing and a great loss. You can argue about how much art the US has, I don’t see how that justifies to ignore the heritage in Iraq!?
Other more “important” sites were secured and IMHO soldiers haven’t been attacked there in the manner you and Okami argue, i.e. it’s too dangerous and thus not worth it. Instead of rockets the organized ones had the keys.
Lame excuse IMHO and yet proof again that the US only cares for their own interests (i.e. those who directly profit them).

Just to make this clear: nobody said you should have protected the museum instead of other places (incl. “your” oil ministery) but I believe the museum deserved to be protected, too.

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The great thing about the internet is that one is judged almost solely by words. Name, rank, educational status, income level, size of house and or penis are all irrelevant as one, they can not be proved, and two, they make no difference to the quality of argument one presents.

Hence Blueface666, despite the allegations that he has served in the military, fails to persuade anyone that his opinion on military matters is more subtle, nuanced, and/or credible that anyone else’s. Maybe in the bar he can bully other’s into thinking his opinions have weight, but here, without his wrinkles, and scary Vietnam vet (or whatever) demeanor, we just hear the braggadocio. And as always, it rings hollow.

As for the choice of protecting the oil ministry over the museum, I think in the long run it will prove to be a bad choice. Culture and cultural industries are vital to the health of a modern economy. They are vital to attracting talent to live and work in cities. They are vital to tourism which is one of the biggest industries in the world and one of the biggest employers of labor.

If you had the choice of protecting Detroit or Hollywood, which would you choose? Factories can always be rebuilt but not so cultural industries.

In the long run, oil will matter less and less. Even in the short term, tourism could prove as valuable to the Iraqi economy. Here is a country that has been inaccessible for years. From the looks of things it’s a beautiful place. Rich in tourist potential. And tourism will probably benefit the average Iraqi far more than the oil.

Regarding the failure to protect the museum, the US made it clear from the start of this war that they would protect the Iraqi heritage. This was part of the overall strategy. Why did it fail? We all have the right to ask, to demand why.

As for troops being stretched too thin. According to a lot of generals that was the fault of Rumsfeld.

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You have no “right” to anything. Your country made that decision when it decided to stand on the sidelines and whine. If you want to have some say in something, contribute. Otherwise, stay on the sidelines with the rest of the whiners.

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(I posted this in another thread. Given its relevance to this thread, I am posting it here too - something I normally wouldn’t do.)

With regard to the looting in Iraq, the following anecdote might cast some light on the matter.

I used to know a couple of brothers from Halabja in Iraqi Kurdistan (the place where the Iraqi regime killed a large number of civilians with poison gas.) One of them told me that although Halabja was not a wealthy place, many homes there had stereos and colour TVs. The reason was that although Iraqi soldiers were very poorly paid, they were given carte blanche to loot. The stereos and TVs were stolen from Iran during the Iran-Iraq war.

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Blueface666 wrote

Oh yes. Good comeback to my post. :unamused: I reeeeally rankle you don’t I? :laughing:

If you’ve read any of my other posts on the war, you’d know that I actually one, supported the overthrow of Saddam Hussein, two, believe for the most part the US has done an admirable job, but still argued this war should not have taken place when it did and how it did. When the US has spent so much effort to make this (appear and be) as humane a war as possible, to have begun it with the entire question of legitimacy hanging over it was foolish in the extreme. In any case, like Tigerman, you seem to oddly want to despise me (though our position is probably 70-80% the same) no matter what I say about this war. As I wrote elsewhere, making enemies of allies seems to be the American way lately.

Remember one thing. Your government made the promise to the world that it would protect Iraq’s heritage. Are you suggesting that that promise is only redeemable by those (Americans) who supported the war? What a pile of nonsense.

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Hey Mucha Man, lighten up. I don’t dislike anyone here. Rather, in fact, I admire quite a few people here, and many of those I admire are ones who generally disagree with me. I’m fairly certain that I annoy some folks here…, but lets not talk about “despising” each other and making “enemies”.

You’re taking this all way to seriously if you think, as you posted previously, that I am looking to make “enemies” here.

I disagree with you … but “disagree” does not equal “despise” in meaning.

I’m sure you’re a very nice guy and I’d probably enjoy drinking a few beers with you.

47

headhonchoII wrote:

I believe the act of not protecting the museum is symbolic of a cultural ignorance to the rest of the world that extends high up in the leadership chain of the US and clearly signposts their priorities.

Blueface responded:

Well, you just exhibited your complete ignorance of the United States and art. Thank you very much. the US, and New York City in particular, has been the world’s art center since WWII. Whether it be publishing, music, dance, etc, the US leads the world.

Dear Blueface,

If you shout loud enough doesn’t make it so. In 1989 the US government spent more money on marching bands than it did on the entire National Endowment for the Arts. (the total budget for the NEA was $171 million; the budget for military bands was $193 million). Since then, the NEA’s budget has dwindled. The following are annual federal budget appropriations for the NEA in millions of dollars:

'94 170 million
95 162
96 99
97 99
98 98
99 99
00 98
01 105
02 115

nasaa-arts.org/nasaanews/nea_issue.pdf

Worldwide, the US lags in per capita spending on the arts. Below is a comparison of total amount of federal, state and local funding per capita for the arts in various countries as of 1994-5. I don’t have more current figures presently, but I’m sure the situation has worsened under little bush and his team of warriors.

Australia $25
Canada 46
Finland 91
France 57
Germany 85
Netherlands 46
Sweden 57
UK 26
US 6

nea.gov/pub/Notes/74.pdf

:frowning:

I think Headhoncho had a valid point about US priorities.

Oh, and here’s one other interesting tidbit for you. Not only is the great state of Texas number one in executions, but it ranks dead last of all states for funding of the arts.

arts.state.tx.us/news/prpower/editorial.pdf

What a surprise.

48

You’re right Tigerman, my rhetoric is a little heavy handed these days. Sorry for the implications.

As for a beer, I’d much rather sample that 25 year old Laphroaigs. :smiley:

49

[quote=“Mucha (Muzha) Man”]You’re right Tigerman, my rhetoric is a little heavy handed these days. Sorry for the implications.

As for a beer, I’d much rather sample that 25 year old Laphroaigs. :smiley:[/quote]

No apology necessary. What’s in the bottle is 30 years aged… :wink:

50

That’s $171 million too much. It’s one thing for the government to support a national gallery or museum but why should the government be subsidizing living “artists”? (And I don’t even want to go into the politics of art grants, leave it say, if your politics aren’t acceptable or you’re of the wrong ethnic group, you won’t get a grant.)

You compare US outlays with socialist welfare states in Europe. Would you prefer the US model itself on, say, Holland? Virtually anyone can get up and say, “I’m an artist”, and the governemnt shells out a hefty grant. Several years ago there was a show on the BBC where they showed warehouses full of “art” produced by these “welfare artists”. The governemnt is stuck with it and can’t even give it away because it’s so bad…but it’s a cash cow for scammers passing themselves off as artists and their organizations. And it employs educated layabouts who might otherwise be out on the streets protesting.

If an artist can’t make money with his/her art, well then maybe a change in occupation is called for.

51

:unamused:

52

Snappy comeback. :laughing:

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I disagree with blueface here as well, but man, your response is funny. You have to be special to get the rolling eyes emoticon from Mother Theresa :smiley: . The one you gave me was deleted, probably because it adds nothing to the discussion. Still, it is damn funny, imagining you in your liberal righteousness shaking your head in digust. It reminds me of my uncle, a liberal living among the most convervative people in America–take a guess where? (No, not Texas).

54

I disagree with blueface here as well, but man, your response is funny.[/quote]

Yep, MT’s response was funny.

But, I agree 100% with Blueface on this.

I do not believe that the inspiration for artistic creation should come from government grants.

I do believe that the government has some responsibility to maintain, teach and preserve the arts, however.

55

So, according to your logic, Finland must be the most artistic nation on Earth.* Thanks for clearing that up. Funny, I’d say your average Balinese has a more basic appreciation of art than any 50 citizens of the countries you list. Now please tell us how much the Indonesian government spends promoting art.
Oh well, I guess it’s just that Northern California welfare mentality: “Throw enough money at the problem and everything will be better.” :unamused:

*And I’m not knocking Finland…at least they’re not slackers, they pay their debts!

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argument.independent.co.uk/regul … ory=399294

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hyperhistory.com/online_n2/c … onst1.html

"The Ottoman Empire (establ. in 1301) advanced rapidly until it spread all the way from the Euphrates to the Danube. The Byzantine Empire shrivelled away until it was reduced to a few territories and a small enclave around Constantinople. Unlike the Arabs, who thought the use of firearms dishonorable, the Ottomans became masters of artillery.

In 1453 they brought their cannons to the gate of Constantinople and stormed the Christian capital after a siege. The Greek Emperor was killed; the great church of St.Sophia was plundered of its treasure and turned into a mosque."

58

[quote=“headhonchoII”]http://argument.independent.co.uk/regular_columnists/philip_hensher/story.jsp?story=399294

[/quote]

I too am saddened that the museum was plundered and the library burned.

Nonetheless, I have to point out that tha author above is making what, IMO, is a flawed conclusion. The museum apparently held artifacts from Sumeria and Babalonia… these civilizations had NOTHING to do with Islam… so why should Moslems conclude that the US has nothing but contempt for Islamic history and life? It was, after all, the Islamic nutcases that destroyed the Buddhist artifacts in Afghanistan. Why would the Moslems be concerned about ancient civilizations that worshipped pagan gods?

I am not suggesting that the Moslems would make these conclusions, I’m only commenting on the authors conclusion that Moslems will believe that the US hates Islam.

59

Blueface, you refer to recipients of public arts funding as

60

I used to live in Nuenen, Van Gogh’s home town…after living there I realized why all his paintings done there were brown and depressing. One of my Dutch neighbors told me the government gives any “artist” money because they are so embarrassed they ran him out and don’t want to do it again. But you were talking about artists hundreds of years ago. May I suggest you go to the Netherlands and view the dismal state of contemporary art? It’s like Dutch food. Gawdawful!

BTW, why don’t we ask Gus to set up an Art Forum here. With everything going on in Taiwan (dance, painting, photography, ceramics, etc) I think it would be great. Anyway, the discussions would be more interesting (to me) than about which bushiban sucks the most. :lol