Stop the looting in Iraq

Politics International Politics
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Ah, funding for the arts. The favorite whipping boy of the right. Now I would agree to let the market reign supreme in the arts if, one, there was such a thing anymore as a (completely) free market, and two, funding for business, r&d, infrastructure, and education was equally left to the dictates of the market. But just like everyone has to pay for roads to be built (whether they use them or not), pay for the parks to be built and maintained (whether they use them or not), pay for children’s education (whether the have children or not), pay for military defense (whether they are hawk or dove), any mature society has to have arts funding.

And you can’t make it an issue of quality as Blueface tries to. If you do then I have the right to ask how some government funded r&d is going. If it isn’t paying its way with saleable inventions and patents then shut it down. I have the right to say I am not subsidizing an NBA basketball team to come to my city (as the Grizzlies did to vancouver) as they don’t have any decent players and will lose every game (which turned out to be true).

The fact is that business cannot exist without government support. From the cheap sale or rent of land, to low taxes offered as an incentive, to direct help when disasters (like SARS) happen, business is a huge beneficiary of government largess. Escpecially at the bigger level. I forget where the quote comes from but someone said that in America (or any capitalist country) what you have is free enterprise for the poor, and middle class, and socialism for the rich and powerful. Meaning, if your a small fry and you fail, you fail and lose your life savings. If your big enough and you fail, you make a deal with the bank, you ask for government assistance, or in the case of your president, walk away until the next opportunity arises.

As I mentioned in an above post, a healthy arts scene is also vital for the health of any modern city. In Vancouver we have Granville Island, which is one of the top tourist spots in the city. On the little island you have a public market, and dozens of small specialty shops selling anything from custom made boats, to stained glass, to funky prints, to hand made shoes. Rent is kept extremely cheap so that artisans can afford to set up shop their and both manufacture and ply their wares. Many of the quirky shops could not exist without government support. Yet they are what gives the place atmosphere. And the island as a whole is one of the things that makes Vancouver one of the most livable cities in the world.

Stop funding the arts and you have Taipei ten or twenty years ago. No one with talent (and I don’t mean just artistic) wanted to live here. And without talent all of business is going to suffer.

As for funding indivdual artists that is more controversial. But think of it like a small business loan. What your money is doing is buying that artist time and space to create. Even if the work is not successful in terms of finding a buyer it may find him a critical audience which will then lead to more work which will eventually lead him to make money and possibly bring more fame to the city he works in. This in turns brings in more tourists and more talented people of all types who enjoy living in a thriving, energetic community where exciting and novel things are created.

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How much further off topic is this going to go?

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Juba wrote:

In the words of a former Canadian Prime Minister:

Just watch me! :smiley:

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i am inspired by how far you can all go off topic, and it is refreshing to see someone like mother theresa fight it out with blueface! I am a whipping boy, too. And an artist. I wonder if that is any coincidence? By the way, I never learned how to suck cock for cash back in Canada. Sigh… I wish I had sometimes…

I think the army let the looters get away with it… It’s almost a mute point. I think it is an emblem for the decay of civilization. Most G.I.s do as they are told, and as someone suggested, maybe they were told to leave the looters alone… It is hard to say… But I feel we are not going to see those priceless treasures again. You’ll have to be invited to the secret society’s party to glimpse them, and we don’t live there…

Hmmm, just to go off track far enough: I won’t say whether I believe in funding for the arts. It is a great thing, in principle, only the bureaucracy tends to transform artists into technocrats, which is quite comical in its own right… But also very sad. They are so meek and righteous, and they always lend-in the same guys over and over again, and they ignore everyone else… Have fun!

pppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppp

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After the army liberates the people, nothing left to liberate but their money. . .

BAGHDAD, April 24 In a scenario that will inevitably attract Hollywood, at least four American soldiers are under investigation in the theft of a huge amount of money perhaps $900,000 or more from more than $656 million in cash apparently left by wealthy Baath Party officials in an exclusive neighborhood of Baghdad, Army officials said today. . .

nytimes.com/2003/04/25/inter … 5THEF.html

What’s next, liberation of their virgin daughters?

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MT,

It’s already been done. See Three Kings.

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Jeez those US army guys.

I would have stashed at least 10 million if I was going to do it!! :slight_smile:

Putting it up a tree?? Hehehehe? Were they feeding the squirrels?

My guess is thats the stuff they FOUND. Probably been a few soldiers gone AWOL running around with shovels in the desert the last couple of days!!!

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Well, well. Guess what? :laughing: I heard American troops were taking candy from Iraqi babies… :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

Most museum artifacts found

U.S. says only 38–not 170,000–missing

By Christine Spolar
Chicago Tribune foreign correspondent
Published May 5, 2003

BAGHDAD – The vast majority of antiquities feared stolen or broken have been found inside the National Museum in Baghdad, according to American investigators who compiled an inventory over the weekend of the ransacked galleries.

A total of 38 pieces, not tens of thousands, are now believed to be missing. Among them is a display of Babylonian cuneiform tablets that accounts for nine missing items.

The most valuable missing piece is the Vase of Warka, a white limestone bowl dating from 3000 B.C.

The inventory, compiled by a military and civilian team headed by Marine Col. Matthew Bogdanos, rejects reports that Iraq’s renowned treasures of civilization–up to 170,000 artifacts–had been lost during the U.S.-led war against Iraq. It also raises questions about why any of the artifacts were reported missing.

The looting seems to have occurred April 10-12, two days after museum officials fled the grounds amid a battle in which Fedayeen Saddam gunners entered the complex and began firing on advancing U.S. tanks.

In one instance, investigators found that intruders had taken some less-valuable artifacts from a storage room in the basement of the museum. That theft, in a little-known storage area, has raised suspicions that the thieves had knowledge of the museum and its storage practices.

Investigators armed with chisels and a sledgehammer broke through hastily constructed barricades Saturday to search several large storage rooms in the museum.

In one storage area on the second floor, they discovered evidence of a gunner’s nest. From debris left behind, investigators concluded that a gunner was armed with an assault rifle and rocket-propelled grenades.

About a foot from the gunner’s lookout was a hole punched through the wall by a 25 mm shell. Investigators surmised that the gunman fled after that single volley from allied forces.

Damage to the museum’s administrative offices was extensive, with desks, wiring, fixtures and chairs hauled out by looters. Artifacts, apparently obscured in some instances by the rubble left by looters, emerged largely unscathed.

“There is no comparison in the level of destruction seen in the museum and that seen the administrative offices,” Bogdanos said. “It’s absolute wanton destruction in the offices. We didn’t see anywhere near that destruction in the museum. [People] stole what they could use. … They left the antiquities.”

Investigators, compiling information about what occurred during the chaotic takeover of Baghdad by U.S.-led troops, are concluding that little damage occurred to antiquities displayed at the museum. Investigators counted 17 display cases destroyed out of 300 to 400 cases. Many of the items apparently were removed before the looting.

In addition, investigators have counted 22 items that were damaged, including 11 clay pots on display in corridors. Most of those damaged artifacts are restored pieces and can be restored again, museum officials told investigators.

The most significant of the damaged pieces was the Golden Harp of Ur. But investigators determined that the golden head on the damaged antiquity, feared missing, was only a copy. Museum officials confirmed this week to investigators that the original head had been placed in a storage vault at the Iraqi Central Bank before the war.

The inventory was compiled after investigators examined five large storage areas in the museum Saturday to check for looting. Each room was lined with shelves holding plastic containers filled with envelopes of small, less-valuable artifacts, such as beads or amulets.

There was no apparent sign of forced entry to the storage sites, and the doors were locked when investigators arrived. Museum staffers told investigators they had no keys to the room, so investigators remain uncertain how entry was made.

Investigators found that the basement storage area, which held thousands of small items not deemed suitable for display, had been disturbed in one of the rooms. They broke through a cinder-block barrier to the room to find hundreds of cardboard boxes intact and about 90 plastic boxes, containing about 5,000 less-valuable items, missing.

A boxful of such items was retrieved about a week ago near Al Kut, investigators said, and it is likely that the intruders are attempting to move other such artifacts outside Baghdad.

chicagotribune.com/news/nati … news%2Dhed

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How can this be true? The Western media is going to have to get their ahem stuff together. I cannot believe that this kind of story was reported so widely without verification.

I guess however that one day soon we will be getting verification of those weapons of mass destruction as well? Any news on this blueface? I do not mean this as a challenge. Just seems that you have some interesting facts at hand.

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Am I not understanding this? Doesn’t really matter how valuable, but in the second quote they say 5000 pieces are missing, up there it’s only 38. What’s it gonna be?

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Rascal:

I am with you on this. I am getting so sick of wild media reports that turn out to be grossly exaggerated. We rely on these people to supply us with accurate information. I believe the 38 from my understanding were prize objets d’art while the 5,000 are nonvital artifacts. That is not to discount the importance, but still 170,000 to 5,038! What the hell is up with the media?!

In fairness, the media has put out early reports of discoveries of weapons of mass destruction that have come to naught as well. Will wait until these actually definitively turn up before commenting or “gloating” further.

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Maybe this is the explanation???

However, some items that have been handed back to the museum are copies. “One of the storerooms that was looted contained almost entirely documented authenticated copies,” Bogdanos said. “I got six items today. They were all from the gift shop.”

www1.dailycamera.com/bdc/iraq/ar … 50,00.html

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I’ll wait for the next report. :unamused:

In any case, how does this report exonerate the US government? They were still willfully (with a capital W seeing as they had more than a little advanced warning that this would happen) negligent in their commitment to protecting Iraq’s heritage.

38 pieces. Let’s see:

David
the Last Supper
Guernica
St. Francis
the Mona Lisa
Discobolus
The Birth of Venus
The Nymph Galatea
One
The Cellist
Cornfield with Cypress
Arrangement in Black and Grey
The giant
Marat Assassinated

And that’s only 14.

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[quote=“Mucha (Muzha) Man”]In any case, how does this report exonerate the US government? They were still willfully (with a capital W seeing as they had more than a little advanced warning that this would happen) negligent in their commitment to protecting Iraq’s heritage.
[/quote]

The US “had more than a little advanced warning”??? :? You’re saying the US government KNEW Iraqi thieves were going to break into the museum? Would you care to provide a source for this allegation?

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From USA Today:

This has happened before. After the 1991 Gulf War, scores of Iraqi regional museums were looted. "They got away with it in 1991, when 5,000 objects were stolen and many of those appeared on the market in the West

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Ah. Well that’s alot clearer. You sounded like the US had wiretaps on the thieves handphones. But! You listed 14 pieces of art…none of them Iraqi. Right off the top of your head 9no checking with Google), can you name 5 important pieces of Iraqi art?

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I listed the 14 pieces to illustrate that even 38 pieces of art lost can be a calamity. As for Iraqi art, there is little of any value since Iraq is a modern country, and one ruled by a ruthless dictators for much of the century (but as an American I guess you know that part).

There are, however, Sumerian, Babylonian, and Assyrian treasures that were stolen. The only piece I can remember was the Ur harp. But what’s your point? The art in Iraqi museums has not exactly been accessible. I like to look at art and not in books.

I did manage to see a fair bit of Mesopotamian art when the exhibition from the Louvre came through town. If any of those pieces were stolen I would recal them.

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Excuse me, but:

Before the war, intellegence sources claimed Iraq had WMD and might use them against it’s neighbors. Everyone said “Bullsh*t! You just want the oil.”

After the war, various parties claim they told the US government Iraqi thieves would break into and loot the national museum. Everyone now says “See! We told you so! Why didn’t you listen to us?”

The common theme seems to be anything the US government did, does or will do is stupid, wrong, evil and concerned only with oil.

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And since this thread is about looting:

U.S.: $1 billion taken from Iraq bank

BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) --About $1 billion was taken from Iraq’s Central Bank the day before the United States began its bombing campaign to remove Saddam Hussein from power, a U.S. Treasury Department official said.

But George Mullinax told CNN he could not confirm reports that Qusay Hussein, Saddam’s son, removed the money.

Mullinax, who is in Iraq to oversee the rebuilding of the country’s economy, said the withdrawal took place March 18. The U.S. bombing campaign began the night of March 19.

Mullinax said he has documents that show about $900 million and possibly $100 million worth of euros were missing from the bank.

He said a group of Iraqis was responsible for the withdrawal, but he could not say that Qusay Hussein coordinated the removal, as The New York Times reported Tuesday.

Residents of the area around the Central Bank in Baghdad told CNN they saw three or four trucks backed up to the bank at that time and that people appeared to be loading money onto the trucks.

cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/05/ … index.html

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Blueface you’re getting paranoid. You keep forgetting that I actually supported the general goals of this war though not the timing and disdain for greater international support. I’ve never claimed this war was about oil.

As for the art historians claiming they told the government before the war, you would think that claim would be pretty easy to verify and so wouldn’t be made unless true. As the people in the article I quoted said, this happened last time. Soem people, if not governments actually learn from the past instead of repeating the same mistakes over and over again.

Why can’t you just admit that your government screwed up on this point? Especially to me since I’ve already stated that for the most part the war was about commendable a campaign as possible. I’m not blind to what was successful. Why are you to what was a failure?