Stray dog problem

Life Pets & Domestic Animals
1

Just outside of Lotus Hill there’s a golf driving range with a public road that goes nowhere, but sort of ends after half a mile or so. It’s beautiful - no cars or motorcycles, just trees and jungle lining the road. It also runs along the top of a ridge, so the view is quite nice. I’d like to take the baby for a walk in her stroller there more often, but the dogs are quite aggressive. Obviously they view that road as their turf. When I brought Gustav along one time, they went apeshit, and I had to throw rocks at them to keep them away. There are about 10 or so dogs, none of them big enough to cause any damage individually (indeed, if they were alone, I believe they’d just run away), but as a pack, I’m sure they would make some nasty bites if they thought they could get away with it. I’d like to reclaim this road for public use. What’s the best strategy here?

Here’s a picture of the road in question:

2

call the council dog catcher. there is one, they just have to have a specific request to catch a dog or dogs. or call sean to remove the menace, but who wants to adopt a wild dog?

i like pet dogs but i don’t like strays, and nor does my wife: she has been attacked twice by a pack of them: once as a child, once more recently. both times she was carrying food… i agree that they are a public menace. we are pretty lucky there is not more rabies in this country. now, if people were really hungry in this country, there would probably be less of a dog problem.

3

Super soaker with vinegar & water mix. Heavy on the vinegar. I’ve used this to discourage territorial dogs. It requires repeat applications as its not terminal. But they seemed to get the hint to leave me/us alone and eventually they moved on.
Paint-ball guns also work and mark the animal for future reference if needed. But it can hurt them, of course.

4

I remember that road from years ago when I was house-sitting at Lotus Hill, and the dogs were there then as well. There was a short, pudgy woman who brought food up to them every day.

5

Dogs tend to be far more aggressive when there is a female in heat or when there are pups around. My first option would be to neuter them all. If any remain truly aggressive, it would be best for the remainder if they (the aggressive ones) were removed by the government.

Most large ‘packs’ of dogs aren’t truly a pack but instead consist of a female in heat and a large number of suitors. This may or may not be the case here, but neutering would be the way to go. We can CNR that area if someone living nearby is willing to put in a little effort collecting data about the number of dogs, their ages, health, etc., and let the community up there know what is going on.

Bear in mind, if you employ the short-sited ‘call the council dog-catcher’ approach, you will only be opening up the area for more dogs to move in and breed. It’s far better to sterilize and vaccinate the ones you have if you truly want to control the population.

6

[quote=“Stray Dog”]Dogs tend to be far more aggressive when there is a female in heat or when there are pups around. My first option would be to neuter them all. If any remain truly aggressive, it would be best for the remainder if they (the aggressive ones) were removed by the government.

Most large ‘packs’ of dogs aren’t truly a pack but instead consist of a female in heat and a large number of suitors. This may or may not be the case here, but neutering would be the way to go. We can CNR that area if someone living nearby is willing to put in a little effort collecting data about the number of dogs, their ages, health, etc., and let the community up there know what is going on.

Bear in mind, if you employ the short-sited ‘call the council dog-catcher’ approach, you will only be opening up the area for more dogs to move in and breed. It’s far better to sterilize and vaccinate the ones you have if you truly want to control the population.[/quote]
I don’t want to control the population. I want it gone. I think the best way is probably to call the shelter and have them removed, because the next day they’ll be gone, right? If new dogs move in a week later, have them removed also, no? This means people can jog there again in peace without being barked at and people can walk their dogs without fear of their dogs (or themselves) being attacked. That’s certainly the most appealing solution in terms of giving the area back to humans.

7

You could try feeding them. I’m sure if they had full bellies they’d be so much happier and less aggressive, and anyway, it would make you feel better.

/irony

8

Very likely if you remove the threat of dog attacks people will now be free to walk up there and litter to their hearts content. No irony there. Unless you plan to organize a daily or twice weekly cleanup I’d say the area is best left to the dogs as that’s where it’s heading anyway.

There’s a road like that just behind where I live. Used to be wonderful place to walk as it was sealed off from traffic. Then some bastards opened it so they could use some plots of land for farming and now the place is a literal shithole.

9

[quote=“Maoman”][quote=“Stray Dog”]Dogs tend to be far more aggressive when there is a female in heat or when there are pups around. My first option would be to neuter them all. If any remain truly aggressive, it would be best for the remainder if they (the aggressive ones) were removed by the government.

Most large ‘packs’ of dogs aren’t truly a pack but instead consist of a female in heat and a large number of suitors. This may or may not be the case here, but neutering would be the way to go. We can CNR that area if someone living nearby is willing to put in a little effort collecting data about the number of dogs, their ages, health, etc., and let the community up there know what is going on.

Bear in mind, if you employ the short-sited ‘call the council dog-catcher’ approach, you will only be opening up the area for more dogs to move in and breed. It’s far better to sterilize and vaccinate the ones you have if you truly want to control the population.[/quote]
I don’t want to control the population. I want it gone. I think the best way is probably to call the shelter and have them removed, because the next day they’ll be gone, right? If new dogs move in a week later, have them removed also, no? This means people can jog there again in peace without being barked at and people can walk their dogs without fear of their dogs (or themselves) being attacked. That’s certainly the most appealing solution in terms of giving the area back to humans.[/quote]

Sure. Give it a try. Let us know how you get on. With a bit (well, actually, a hell of a lot) of luck, eventually the area might be repopulated by friendly, vaccinated, neutered dogs. Perhaps you could organize family picnics the same day the dogcatchers come! But move on quickly, because the next resident dogs will be waiting to move in, and, also, bear in mind, the dogcatchers only get the more approachable less wily ones. Perhaps it could be a weekly event? The Post-Catch-and-Kill Picnic. :unamused:

Let us know how it goes. If any come back, then you have just killed a pack of dogs needlessly, ones that could have been neutered, which would have lowered the occurrences of antisocial behaviour and allowed you to truly control the population. But try your approach - why learn from others’ mistakes when you are perfectly capable of making your own. :wink:

10

In essence Sean is saying that you DO want to control the population. Fix the animals and there are no females in heat or pups so the chances of them being aggressive are slight. A pack of docile dogs is no threat to humans but they will protect their terroritory from other dogs. This is what you want: a team of human friendly mutts protecting your turf against interlopers. And you don’t even have to pay protection money. Win-win all around.

11

Why are you convinced that dogs will move in there? They’re not everywhere. The other road that runs to the right and parallel with the road by the driving range is dog-pack free, although I have seen a stray mutt or two. Maybe cleaning up the driving range course once or twice will take care of the problem. After all, there aren’t stray dogs everywhere.

It isn’t win-win. Any extra money I make can go to my daughter’s education fund. I’m not about to spend it to neuter a bunch of wild dogs that may or may not still be aggressive after I’ve spent time and money fixing them. And I don’t wnat them to protect their territory from other dogs. I take Gustav with me when I go out for walks, and I don’t need a pack of wild strays growling and nipping at our heels with me whipping rocks and swinging sticks at them. That’s not a fun walk. Like I said, I want to take the road back. It doesn’t belong to wild dogs.

12

Exactly! They focus on/in areas that best serve them. If you remove the ones from that road, which is obviously highly sought after in canine circles (the Lotus Hills of the dog world, as it were), those few you see wandering in the sidelines will move in and breed like crazy. I read that one study showed we can actually cause population explosions if we remove dogs from an area with an abundance of resources.

Also, by neutering the population you have and leaving them there, they will become older and less of a nuisance anyway; take them away, and the younger, more troublesome (intact) ones will move in.

My response was sarcastic before, but it was truthful. The dogcatcher hasn’t yet proven to be the best (a good) method for keeping stray populations down; gradually removing the food source does, CNR does, education does, neutering ones own dogs does, etc. Dogcatchers work all over Taipei City and Taipei County. The city has the least amount of garbage lying around (not so just a decade ago when packs of dogs where rife here); the county is dirty as hell and provides an abundance of food for scavengers such as the domesticated dog. Try organizing a clean-up of the area … then that picnic will be much more enjoyable. :wink:

13

So you’re saying I have to live with them? That their behaviour might change after time and money, but no guarantee? That’s not much of an incentive to get involved. It’s obviously easiest to call the shelter and be guaranteed access of the property, if only for a couple of days.

How much does it cost to catch and neuter 10-15 dogs? How does one do it? What if I’m not happy with the results, ie they’re still aggressive? Then would it be appropriate to call the shelter? After all, I have no interest in the well-being of wild dogs. If they fell down a hole, I’d lose no sleep. Of course, if their behaviour will change after every one of them is fixed, then maybe, maybe I’d be interested. I can handle live and let live. But if they can’t, I’d do my best to make sure they got a one-way ticket out of there, and every pack that moved in to take their place.

14

[quote=“Maoman”]So you’re saying I have to live with them? That their behaviour might change after time and money, but no guarantee? That’s not much of an incentive to get involved. It’s obviously easiest to call the shelter and be guaranteed access of the property, if only for a couple of days.

How much does it cost to catch and neuter 10-15 dogs? How does one do it? What if I’m not happy with the results, ie they’re still aggressive? Then would it be appropriate to call the shelter? After all, I have no interest in the well-being of wild dogs. If they fell down a hole, I’d lose no sleep. Of course, if their behaviour will change after every one of them is fixed, then maybe, maybe I’d be interested. I can handle live and let live. But if they can’t, I’d do my best to make sure they got a one-way ticket out of there, and every pack that moved in to take their place.[/quote]

I’m saying you have to live with them until the resources are removed. I’m saying you don’t have to live with them; you can live with a less-aggressive them. No guarantees, but better options than killing them and waiting for the next bunch to move in and see what they’re like. You think the kill method is better, so, as I said, go for it and learn the hard way. The thousands that tried before you may have been wrong, after all.

We would ask that your community got involved and helped chip in to have the dogs neutered and vaccinated. For 15 dogs, that may be about NT$20,000; registered groups can apply to the government for funds to neuter. You observe them for a week or so, noting numbers, photographing individuals, etc., so we know what we’re dealing with. Organize a place for them to stay for 24 hours if you can; if not, we could try to set something up near the vet. Then we organize a team of people to catch the dogs. We take them straight to the vet; they wait 8 hours and operate; they recover for one night or the best part of a day; and then they’re returned.

Chnages in behaviour can be seen in three to five months, and will lessen anyway with no females in heat being around (many of the males will leave for just that reason alone).

If any dogs are still aggressive after 6 months, I would sadly suggest having those particular ones removed, as they threaten the welfare of the others, and those are the ones keeping new dogs at bay.

15

Sean, who’s got that kind of time? I just want them out. Even if I get them out for only a week, I’m ahead of the game compared to your solution. Mine lets kids walk their pets without fear the minute the dogs are removed. Yours says “wait 6 months to see if they’re still aggressive”. Your solution costs money. Mine costs a phone call (and taxpayer dollars, granted). Your solution takes time. Mine takes effect the minute they’re removed.

We have two different agendas here. You’d like to see a sustained, stable population. I’d like to see no population, even if only briefly. Your agenda doesn’t necessarily give the road back to humans. Mine does.

16

I feel like I’ve had this conversation before.

17

Sean’s solution works. Yours doesn’t. It’s been proven time and time again in countries all over the world. Read the links Sean posts. You can kill them and they’ll be replaced. No matter how many you kill, they’ll come back. This isn’t conjecture, its why killing doesn’t work and has been proven time and again not to work.
Killing is what is done at present in Taiwan, and on a massive scale. It doesn’t work – the evidence is as clear as the nose on your face.
Your saying “I just want them gone, I don’t care about them at all” is voicing what a middle-aged ignorant Taiwanese housewife is likely to say. Fortunately you’re only one of those three things, so you’re a lot more open to education than she is.
But whatever. As Sean says, go ahead and prove to yourself how wrong you are on this. Have them killed. And the next ones. And the ones after that. And after that. And so on. Me, I’d rather have a stable, managed population than a constant battle with new strays.

18

I believe you, but I don’t believe they’ll come back immediately. I think I might get a grace period of days, weeks, possibly even months! I’ll take what I can get.

19

it won’t go away until people stop dumping dogs. that’s not gonna happen in this cesspool for a while.

i’d rather have no strays at all… and CNR programs are only useful if people stop dumping fresh ones. how about instituting the castration and spaying of all dogs before sale? unless you’re a licenced breeder.

and the banning of sale of breeds like husky in taiwan, while you’re at it. what a stupid place for a husky.

20

It doesn’t work here? I seem to remember a lot more strays when I first got here than what I see now. Say 1990 to 1993…