You’ve been told already that it’s not the contents of the bill specifically (although that’s what started it), it’s the way that they tried to pass it, breaking previous promises.
In any case, you’ll find little support here. I think most people on this forum at least somewhat anti-KMT.
I seem to recall all the KMT leaders praising the actions of students rioting in the May 4th movement, where the leader back then was also legally elected through the democratic procedures at the time. Those students set fire to a city block and beat innocent people half to death. But somehow they are heroes of China, leaders in the KMT, principle of NTU…
When a system is broken, democratic process has to work outside the system. It’s as simple as that.
Very detailed account at The Diplomat, by J. Michael Cole.
thediplomat.com/2014/03/taiwanes … hina-pact/
He takes out the dirty laundry: strong arm tactics against its own legislators, lack of public support, backtracking on promises, bulldozing its way through legal channels. Even the mafia gets a mention.
As to the ambiance in the area, well, the second day of the standoff seems a bit more peaceful, less cops around, but more crowds. Cooler temps, cooler heads.
Which reminds me, getting the AC on before July… u bo bi ah!
Prediction - on Friday, when the next floor meeting was scheduled, the KMT legislators will convene the legislature elsewhere in Taipei, make an announcement late enough that the DPP / TSU legislators cannot make it in time for the start, and then proceed with a very quick line by line review and vote on it before any opposition are in attendance. Then they’ll say that it was reviewed line by line, voted on and passed.
[quote=“Icon”]Very detailed account at The Diplomat, by J. Michael Cole.
thediplomat.com/2014/03/taiwanes … hina-pact/
He takes out the dirty laundry: strong arm tactics against its own legislators, lack of public support, backtracking on promises, bulldozing its way through legal channels. Even the mafia gets a mention.
As to the ambiance in the area, well, the second day of the standoff seems a bit more peaceful, less cops around, but more crowds. Cooler temps, cooler heads.
Which reminds me, getting the AC on before July… u bo bi ah!
[/quote]
So glad Michael is sticking around and not leaving Taiwan.
A quick summary for those too lazy to read (I don;t think it was posted yet).
Although I think the message is lost in the comedy.
Does the fact of being democratically elected give you a free pass to do whatever you want in whatever way you see fit ? When a democratic system lacks basic firewalls against abuses, I can only applause when citizens take action.
They look like mostly students to me. I’m quite impressed they have gone ahead and did this and also no violence so far. Says a lot for Taiwan.
There’s been a lot of anger building for various reasons and this is the outcome. The guy who drove his truck through the presidential compound recently was a foretaste. The Chinese back room dealing KMT and the legislature in general need to sit up and take notice. They are not going to get a free ride.
They’re getting the government they deserve. Democracy can’t cure stupidity.
Can you explain how this pact, as presently worded, and as presently attempted to be passed without legislative review, was part of Ma’s 2012 presidential campaign and also the campaign of every single legislator? Of course we know it wasn’t which is why even KMT supporters are unhappy with it.
Voting for someond once doesn’t mean you then lose all right to later disagree with a particular policy of your representative. Just consider the word: representative.
[quote=“silly.putty”]A quick summary for those too lazy to read (I don;t think it was posted yet).
Although I think the message is lost in the comedy.[/quote]
How is the system broken? After the passing of ECFA the majority of voters still voted KMT in the 2012 elections. The KMT’s agenda is well documented and known among Taiwanese.
“Outside of the system” is nothing but a poor pretense to disregard the results of democratic elections. How about the student protesters and all the other people who oppose the service agreement form their own political party and run in the next legislative elections? How about they collect signatures and recall KMT legislators?
Oh right, they will not be able to get enough votes or signatures. So screw the democratic process - what the students want is more important than votes or signatures. That is what kills democracy, not the majority caucus pushing through the service agreement.
There are two very divergent views here and a whole lot of in betweens. Taiwan needs to work by consensus, you can’t have one side doing back room deals with a foreign power without debate and review in society. These are huge issues like identity and sovereignty!
I for one have no big problem with the service pact, but it’s the way there approached it without explaining the benefits and also it is seen as allowing Chinese involvement on a large scale in Taiwan, something that people are right to be at least wary of. The Chinese have an openly stated policy of using economic might to take over Taiwan.
The other thing that is driving this obviously youth versus oldies. The parliament and government is full of old folks who mostly have millions salted away and take their pay from big business and developers, they are completely out of touch with modern reality
It’s just unfair that the pan blue camp always has a majority because more people vote for them. While vote buying can influence who wins certain seats in the LY election, it is not an election that can be easily bought or rigged nationwide like the presidential election which can be cheated as in 2000 and 2004.
[quote=“hansioux”][quote=“rowland”]This raises the question: why does the opposition party lack the numbers?
Is it time for people to start pontificating about lawful behavior and respect for elected governments and all that?[/quote]
because local elections are more susceptible to vote-buying, agricultural association/fishing association bullying and other types of tactics, and even when both sides are willing to get dirty in that game, KMT will always have the legislative majority due to the enormous illegal assets they have.[/quote]
Wang Chien-shien & The Jesus Complex
Please read my blog post on this.
http://nicksreports.wordpress.com/2014/03/20/wang-chien-shien-the-jesus-complex/
[quote=“headhonchoII”]There are two very divergent views here and a whole lot of in betweens. Taiwan needs to work by consensus, you can’t have one side doing back room deals with a foreign power without debate and review in society. These are huge issues like identity and sovereignty!
I for one have no big problem with the service pact, but it’s the way there approached it without explaining the benefits and also it is seen as allowing Chinese involvement on a large scale in Taiwan, something that people are right to be at least wary of. The Chinese have an openly stated policy of using economic might to take over Taiwan.
The other thing that is driving this obviously youth versus oldies. The parliament and government is full of old folks who mostly have millions salted away and take their pay from big business and developers, they are completely out of touch with modern reality[/quote]
Collect signatures for recall motions of KMT legislators. Should not be a problem if a majority of Taiwanese opposes the “backroom deals” of the KMT.
Vote for whatever party is more deliberative.
There are peaceful and legal ways to solve this. There is no legitimation in occupying a parliament that has been democratically elected by the Taiwanese people. How pretentious is it for the students to claim that they represent the true wishes of the Taiwanese people when they the selves have not been elected to anything?
Taiwan and its economy will pay a heavy cost if this attempt to disrupt the stable working of government and democratic institutions is not quickly nipped in the bud.
If this ill-conceived escapade does drag on and drag Taiwan backward, I wonder if its inciters, participants and supporters will blame the government for the loss of income and drop in standard of living that millions of Taiwanese will suffer in consequence of it? Or will they see and acknowledge where the finger of blame should be pointed?
But perhaps this is just what the KMT needs to resuscitate its hopes of winning the next cycle of elections. If the authorities deal with this firmly but gently, spank those bottoms that need to be spanked, and restore the system to orderly working before too much harm can be done, they’ll surely win the approval of the great majority of the electorate.
Can anyone imagine that such an assault on government would be tolerated in any mature Western democracy? Only a very small percentage of the population would feel or express any sympathy for it, and the government would have strong public support for employing all necessary means of law enforcement against it. Why should it be any different in Taiwan?
As for the merits of the services trade agreement: Government negotiators (civil service technocrats, not KMT politicians) have worked hard to secure this deal on the best terms that can possibly be extracted from China. They have done pretty well, as anyone who examines it with sufficient understanding and objectivity should be able to see very clearly. The agreement is hugely important to Taiwan’s economic development, which is leaking badly at the seams and needs all the patching up it can get to keep it from floundering. It is vital that this pact be endorsed by the legislature and activated as quickly as possible. Every week and month of delay will reduce its value to Taiwan. The opposition legislators in the LY have no interest whatsoever in examining the pact on its merits: their sole purpose is to stall its passage for as long as they can, and if possible kill it completely. Allowing them to go at it clause by clause and word by word will enable them to do just that. If they succeed in their ill-intentioned ploy, the good ship Taiwan and all who sail in her had better be prepared for the worst.
And just for the record, in case anyone misunderstands where my views are coming from: I am not a KMT supporter or pro-unificationist, and will be glad to see Tsai Ing-wen elected as President in 2016.
[quote=“hsinhai78”][quote=“headhonchoII”]There are two very divergent views here and a whole lot of in betweens. Taiwan needs to work by consensus, you can’t have one side doing back room deals with a foreign power without debate and review in society. These are huge issues like identity and sovereignty!
I for one have no big problem with the service pact, but it’s the way there approached it without explaining the benefits and also it is seen as allowing Chinese involvement on a large scale in Taiwan, something that people are right to be at least wary of. The Chinese have an openly stated policy of using economic might to take over Taiwan.
The other thing that is driving this obviously youth versus oldies. The parliament and government is full of old folks who mostly have millions salted away and take their pay from big business and developers, they are completely out of touch with modern reality[/quote]
Collect signatures for recall motions of KMT legislators. Should not be a problem if a majority of Taiwanese opposes the “backroom deals” of the KMT.
Vote for whatever party is more deliberative.
There are peaceful and legal ways to solve this. There is no legitimation in occupying a parliament that has been democratically elected by the Taiwanese people. How pretentious is it for the students to claim that they represent the true wishes of the Taiwanese people when they the selves have not been elected to anything?[/quote]
How pretentious it is for the KMT top brass to have party-to-party meetings in China and try to implement trade deals without review by BOTH industry or the public at large.
The legislature itself is corrupt as hell, most of them bought their seats or inherited seats. They mainly go through the motions of democracy. I’ve often heard the local legislators being described as ‘pigs’ and I agree with that assessment in many cases.
We’ve even had to listen to Wang Jin Ping saying this is a bad example for society. :liar:
The occupation of the legislature is a warning to the KMT and business elites and the Chinese government that not everybody is going to sleep walk into China’s arms.
The KMT promised to allow a review of the agreement. So what if it is delayed , LOOK AT WHATS HAPPENED NOW! They could have done the review, had it delayed, and got it passed. That’s called the democratic process (remember there was no consultation with local business prior to the implementation either).
Omin, your memory is very short. The KMT blocked almost all significant legislation for 8 years! At least a review would not have blocked the implementation of any agreement like the KMT did for 8 years!
Moaning about students occupying the legislature, no, the students are the only ones paying attention and willing to do something!
Young people aren’t dumb, they don’t see anything in this service pact for them. Why should big business or property owners or media conglomerates get all the breaks while minimum wage is barely adjusted and working conditions are so poor here? What’s in it for young people?
This is a good point, but still needs to be put into context.
Why was the executive order given? Because if the bill was voted on in a normal democratic way, then the KMT would pass the bill with their majority.
Since the DPP cannot block the bill by voting, they basically resort to physical obstruction by not allowing the speaker to take the podium, etc.
Therefore, a vote cannot be held because the DPP doesn’t respect the vote.
So while I wish a line by line review could have taken place with proper negotiation, I don’t think that’s the real issue here. The DPP just doesn’t want the bill passed in any way shape or form just like they didn’t want ECFA.
So the authoritarian executive order is done due to an authoritarian opposition that doesn’t really care about the democratic process in the first place.
If the DPP really is critical of certain things and wants them adjusted/changed, then I’m sure that discussion would have been able to take place, but the behavior of the party is that it opposes economic deals with the PRC because that’s the position it must take to appeal to its core supporters.
The students look heroic due to the executive order, but there should also be pressure on the DPP to actually want to discuss the deal line by line and then vote on it after whatever compromises and changes need to be made.
But I don’t think that allowing the pact to pass in any way is good for the DPP.
Because in some ways as the pact is intended, it might actually help Taiwan’s economy. Helping Taiwan’s economy in certain regards is not what the DPP wants because it helps the KMT in the year end elections and the presidential election in 2016.
So in other words, gaining power is more important than discussing line by line what the impacts of this service pact are.
I’m not terribly critical of the students because it looks like they are opposing an authoritarian executive order, but if they really wanted to help the democratic process, they would be making demands on the opposition party to actually cooperate in the democratic process. I mean where were these students all those times that the DPP legislators would start using tactics from rugby? Why didn’t they charge into the LY to tackle the DPP legislators from blocking the podium and thus preventing a democratic process to continue?
So blocking the podium is okay, but not an executive order?
The actions of all parties involved from the students, the opposition, and the ruling party don’t bode well for Taiwan’s democratic progress.
[quote=“Hokwongwei”][quote=“hsinhai78”]These protestors lack any democratic legitimation.
What kind of behaviour is this? You dislike the way the majority caucus acts so you break into parliament and disrupt the session? Under what mandate anyways? These students were not elected by the Taiwanese people, they merely act on their own behalf. They do however obstruct democratically elected representatives from exercising the people’s sovereignty.[/quote]
KMT in June 2013: We promise – in writing – that we will allow an item-by-item review of this pact (which only the KMT was involved in negotiating) in the legislature, and we will not make it automatically go into effect.
KMT on March 17, 2014: We don’t care about our promises. This is either going to a vote on the legislative floor without an extensive review or we’re just going to make it an executive order making a vote nullified anyway.
The KMT has torn up its credibility and made itself out to look like a party of tyrants. Way to go.
That is a lack of democratic legitimacy. The KMT is happy to put on a face of democracy and republicanism as long as it serves their needs. When it doesn’t anymore, they tear up agreements and force things through in a tyrannical way. I don’t know how anyone could think Taiwan’s democracy is healthy when the head of the ruling party has effective control over both executive and legislative branches.
BTW I give a quick rundown of the whole event here: hokwongwei.com/cpost/?p=509[/quote]
Every now and then you need to make a stand, and shake things up. That’s whats happening here, there’s too much cosy elitism and back door dealing in this country.
The students have asked for a line-by-line review as one of their demands.
The DPP aren’t great either, I agree with that, but the KMT need to stop this big business CCP loving crap too and start thinking about the regular folks including young people.