Studying at ShiDa's MTC

Hi everybody!

First time poster here. I am an intermediate Mandarin speaker from the US that is tentatively planning to move to Taipei this fall to study at ShiDa’s MTC courtesy of the Huayu Enrichment Scholarship. I just found out a week ago that I have been awarded the scholarship, and am pretty pumped to have this opportunity to study in Taiwan for free (practically). However, I have recently been reading some pretty crappy things about the experience of studying at MTC, and also have a friend that is at the comparable program at TaiDa (not ICLP, I forget the name), and she is really not enjoying putting in the long stressful hours with little to show for it besides character recognition. Frankly, she seems unhappy, and I really don’t want to be in a similar position come this fall.

So I guess I am looking for some advice, and definitely some encouragement, that committing to this program is a good idea. I put a lot of work into the scholarship, and am honored to have this opportunity, but am afraid I am going to end of being bummed with the experience and will have taken the opportunity away from someone else that could have used it better. I am the type of person that loves getting out there and using my language skills, and am pretty self-motivated, so I’m wondering if I should find some way to live in Taiwan/the mainland that offers me more flexibility. Do you guys think I am overreacting, or that perhaps there is a better language program I could apply to (I have heard good things about Wenhua)? Is there any way I do some research in anticipation of the fall to make sure I land a great teacher?

Anyway, any advice would be very much appreciated. Hope I don’t sound like a complete twat…just trying to make a decision that will lead to a positive experience. Thank you for taking the time to read this!

Cheers,
James

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I studied at the MTC for six quarters, including a year on the Taiwan Scholarship. It was a couple of years ago but I wouldn’t expect any tremendous change to have happened since then.

Many of the issues are system-wide. In particular:

  1. They won’t teach you the way people actually speak in Taiwan but what some old folks at the Ministry of Education had determined everyone should be speaking (when they came here in 1945). The commonly used textbook called “Practical Audio-Visual Chinese” is neither practical nor audio-visual and the Chinese in it is not really the Chinese as spoken in Taiwan. It can then come as a shock when after half a year of intensive classes you go out on the street and don’t understand anyone – even if, as helpfully pointed out by one Shida teacher, it’s their fault because those people don’t speak Chinese the proper way (as determined by the Ministry).

  2. The way of instruction is mundane and emphasizes rote memorization over understanding. There is a heavy focus on handwriting, which I was OK with, but it doesn’t need to be the same for everyone, and students should have some choice in this. Well, they don’t. In any case, there are smarter ways to study than rewriting all of characters dozens of times, especially with the technology available now.

  3. Testing and allocating points for everything is the name of the game. While it’s good to have some feedback as you go, it’s often taken to the level when it becomes putting the cart before the horse. Most people enrol to learn some Chinese and not to earn points. One side effect of this system is that the teacher becomes focused on catching you making mistakes. For example, on a dictation test, if you write it perfectly (no mistakes), your score will be “- 0” (minus zero): while technically true, this does a lot to illustrate the way of thinking. Under such circumstances, less motivated or more easily intimidated people would just limit themselves to do the bare minimum, as this reduces the risk of making any mistake. This is not the way to learn a language though: you should aim for being understood not for full correctness (impossible), and you need to experiment to learn something new, which means mistakes are inevitable and part of the process.

Taiwan is still a great place to learn Chinese, and you can definitely do it but you need to follow your own plan and realize whatever the teachers or the bureaucracy are asking you to do is not necessarily the best use of your time. In fact, it might very well be a distraction. This applies to all the language centers in Taiwan and is something you need to prepare yourself mentally for.

(I will write specifically about Shida in another post later.)

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Now, onto Shida.

As a scholarship laureate, you need to enrol with an accredited language center. Expect all of them to suck but there’s no way around it (such as finding and hiring a motivated teacher privately) if you want the scholarship.

Shida is not worse than other places, however it is also not better, and it is probably the most overpriced for what you’ll be getting, as they’re fully riding their reputation of the “default” place most (Western) people choose.

One advantage of Shida shows if you’re at an advanced level, as there will be more advanced classes to choose from. Other centers might not have groups above upper intermediate. However, I understand you’re just about to start, so this doesn’t apply to you.

The biggest weakness is that there is a government-mandated number of at least 15 hours that a student needs to attend per week (for scholarship renewal and leave-to-remain extension). This applies to all centers. In the old days, Shida used to have 3 hours of “small-group” (real) classes per day, so there was no issue. However, to extract more money from the students, now it’s just the “intensive” classes that are like this, and the “regular” classes are only 2 hours per day, which means you need to supplement this by “other” forms of attendance.

It’s either small-group classes that you have to pay extra for or large classes. Some of the large classes can be very interesting (“Chinese for Cooking” or “Taiwanese Minnan”), thanks to the excellent, motivated lecturers that teach them. However, they don’t necessarily run every quarter, or might be repeating the same material, so at some point you’ll inevitably be spending 20 hours per month in the library or watching a boring soap opera (which, as a beginner, you might not even understand – not a big loss anyway) just to get stamps for your attendance records so that your scholarship doesn’t get cancelled. Other centers might actually provide real (3-hour) classes for the “regular” price or, even if they have nothing to offer and are less strict verifying the attendance records, it can save you a lot of time otherwise wasted. Note: to attend large classes at Shida you don’t need to be a student, as no one checks that and there’s typically a lot of free seats available.

Your experience at Shida will depend on the teacher you get. The allocation is a lottery, so during the first class be very alert for any early warning signs: don’t ignore them, it will not get better, only worse. Run an change your group immediately. Rinse, repeat. Note: this advice will only work for some people, namely those who are the quickest. The less lucky will inevitably be stuck with the bad teachers as after the good groups fill up with refugees the upper limit on students is reached and no changes are possible anymore.

What is the extent of “bad?” Generally, the “bad” teachers are the ones that don’t seem to follow any lesson plan, go too slow, talk too much themselves as opposed to letting students talk, focus not on what should be taught or practiced but on assignments that are easy to perform or grade, allow pointless digressions from students or, worse yet, drift into digressions themselves. To illustrate what can be waiting at the bottom end, I had a teacher that would waste class time to go on rants, such as talking to my (ridiculously slim and fit) American classmate: “you Americans are all fat and lazy, if it weren’t for China bailing you out, you’d all be bankrupt” or ridiculing a girl from the Philippines for coming from a poor country. Similar observations by the said teacher would fill up most of the class time everyday.

It’s not worth it to pay 30,000 TWD per month (now possibly more) to run a 50% chance of having to listen to such drivel in lieu of Chinese lessons, or ending up with an otherwise unmotivated teacher. For that reason, especially if I were a beginner, I’d give Wenhua (CCU) or some other university, not necessarily in Taipei, a chance. It might very well end up being similar experience but at least it should be cheaper by about a third.

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Concluding thoughts:

What also matters a great deal, although you have limited control over it, is who the other students in your group are. I learned a lot in the “intensive” classes I took in my first two quarters at Shida not so much because of the extra hour but due to people being extra motivated. Perhaps the need to sign up for a “intensive” class, and pay extra for it, sort of helps here.

At the risk of generalizing, from my experience the most motivated students in Taiwan are the Vietnamese. Having at least one such student in your group is definitely an asset. I think they largely avoid Shida now though (probably another sign you can get the same for less elsewhere). Beyond motivation, you will not be switching back to English as you would if the group were comprised of Western students only. Also, while they might speak with an accent too, this will be a different accent than that of the Western people, and, Vietnamese being a tonal language too, they generally get the tones right, so it’ll do wonders for your listening comprehension, even if it might feel more difficult at the beginning.

When you reach the more advanced level, another group of very motivated people are the “ABCs,” etc. As they’re learning the language of their parents, they have a very good reason to aim to be great at it. At a beginner level though, some this motivation might show by trying to demonstrate that they already know much more (and very often they really do, the problem is that it’s just not relevant to what is being taught at the moment). This has the potential to derail a class by making it drift into a series of digressions upon digressions, and the end of which no-one feels they learned anything. So, having “ABCs” in beginner classes can be a mixed blessing. I think Shida has separate beginner groups for them now. You might also meet some native speakers of other Chinese languages too, such as Cantonese, although typically not at the beginner level. They are great to have as well.

On the other hand, having serious party people is not necessarily bad, especially if at some point they stop showing up, which effectively makes the group smaller, giving each of the other students more time with the teacher. A Chinese class for exchange students I took at the NTU, where some 5-10 other people were registered, quickly turned into a one-on-one for me when everyone else disappeared from it for some reason (perhaps it was because it was held in the evenings).

The worst kind of person to share a group with is one that shows up and disrupts the class. Whenever I’ve seen it, it was always due to some sort of excessive attention-craving. Fortunately there are not many such people but if you spot one in your group, it might be worth it to move as well, even if the teacher is fine.

The above are broad categorizations, although based on my experience, and it’s much better to see people as individuals they are, not through group stereotypes. Most likely you will have a great class, where everyone will be eager to learn something and excited about it. However, sometimes you only have limited time to decide whether to switch the group or not, and your experience for the following three months will depend on that decision. I wish someone posted something like this on Forumosa at the time I was in such a situation.

Separately, you also asked what you can do to prepare in advance. Get the Pleco app and start doing the flashcards. If you set it up the correct way, it’ll really help you like nothing else.

Good luck with your Chinese studies, and the scholarship.

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Thank you for your thorough response Doraemonster!! Really some fantastic advice. One thing I thought I’d mention: I’m actually an intermediate Chinese speaker (studied in high school and a little since, lived in Beijing for a few months b/w high school and college) if that makes a big difference regarding the quality of education at MTC (though I do not read traditional characters). I feel like I should roll with the experience, as it is only 6 months…I just have a hard time committing to what sounds like will inevitably be a slog, especially since I’m giving up a lot back home to move all the way out to Taiwan.

If I can ask you one more question: Did you find that you were able to pursue life outside of school while you were studying at MTC? And do you ultimately feel like it was worth it to push through the experience, or would you do it another way in retrospect?

Thanks again for all of the help!
James

Doing independent language study is akin to doing a graduate degree on scholarship. Grades don’t matter, as long as they are good ENOUGH. You just need to make whatever you need to get the money each month. Other than that, it’s up to you to figure out what works for you to acquire the language. The classes at [insert name of language center] are all pretty much the same in Taiwan so far, no matter what they may say on the web site or promotional materials. You might as well choose by cost, location, or a combination of those. If you can successfully make yourself detach from the very common feeling (in many students of Chinese) that the only passing grade is 100%, you will get more out of the experience holistically than only from doing the class. The class is just the price of getting the scholarship money, in one sense.

Thanks Terry, that is a really great way to look at it! It’s reassuring to know that freaking out about choosing the wrong program isn’t gonna do me much good. I had one more question: Do you guys know if, as a student at MTC, I will have access to student resources at ShiDa? (Things like their gym, other extracurricular facilities) I am a musician and was hoping to be able to practice while I’m in Taiwan. I can bring my bass, but not a piano and am crossing my fingers that they have a piano somewhere that I can play from time to time. I’ll definitely send them an email about this, but thought I’d ask you guys as well.

Thanks again for all of the advice!

I don’t know what exactly you’d have to give up to pursue your Chinese studies, the way you put it makes it sound quite serious. In my case it was definitely worth it, I’ve never regretted it. I enjoyed it and learned a lot, although, beyond the beginner level, I was mostly learning by myself, and at times felt the classes I attended were not conducive but disruptive to my progress, as they burdened me with time-consuming assignments of little educational value.

I could have made much better use of the scholarship money if I were allowed to hire a teacher privately. This is not an option however. Theoretically, you can register for one-on-one through Shida, but the rates are prohibitively high. It’d still be more efficient to enrol for any group class in the cheapest language center (Wenhua?), and then find a private teacher to supplement that.

Admittedly, at some point I started looking at Shida exactly the way ironlady just put it:

Or, in other words: “you can get some money from the government if you share some part of it back with the government. Even after this deduction, it’s still a net gain relative to self-financing, so why not.”

If you’re at an intermediate level already, just not familiar with the traditional characters, you would benefit a lot more if your teacher takes account of this, and works with you, perhaps individually, to cover the differences.

What might happen instead when you ask to join a non-beginner class at Shida is that you will have to take a placement test, on which you will do relatively badly, as you don’t know the traditional characters. You will then be placed in a group below your listening and speaking abilities, and find the class too easy and boring, although you might still struggle with the characters.

Don’t expect anyone at Shida to take into account your special circumstances, you are just an input to the system that needs to be processed in a uniform way. So, by all means, start learning the traditional characters now, through Pleco or otherwise.

You can definitely have a life outside of school if you navigate the system well. Register for your classes as early in the morning as possible. The first four days of each month, sit through 5 hours in the library, the soap opera, or any other large-group class (I think the limit is 5 hours per day). Then you can be free as early as 10 am everyday for the rest of the calendar month.

MTC enrolment does not grant you Shida student status. You can register to use some of the student facilities but for a different, much higher price than the local students. Shida facilities are not that great in the first place, for this in Taipei you should choose Taida or maybe Zhengda.

You asked what I would have done differently: I would have avoided Shida. At the time I thought it would be worth the premium and it would make a difference over any other language center in how much I would be able to learn. Nothing could be further from the truth: most of what I learned, I learned myself, and it mattered little which language center I chose. As for Shida, it used to be a comparatively good proposition maybe 20 or 30 years ago but ever since, the quality of instruction and the facilities have been getting worse and worse, while the tuition and other fees have been increasing steeply every year. Who can blame them though, if people just keep on coming anyway, due to their lack of information. Still, now it’s essentially an operation to extract maximum short-term profit for as long as possible, without reinvesting any of it or any making any tangible improvements. There are too many bad and mediocre teachers who should have been fired long time ago but never will because they’re too well-connected. Even the cleaners at Shida are hired through connections, so they don’t feel particularly compelled to clean either. And on top of it all there is an incompetent and rude office staff that has at times put students in serious trouble, for example with visa matters, through their mistakes or misinformation. They too, of course, have never been held accountable for anything.

Although in the end things have worked out decently for me anyway, if at the time of making the decision I knew what I know now, I would have chosen differently. There must be some other place that is better but even if there isn’t, then there is at least something cheaper. And if that cheaper place actually offers 3 hours of real instruction per day, as Shida used to, eliminating the need for forced library hours, or at least clean restrooms, that would be a nice touch.

Question:

As far as I can see, the scholarship can be used in any training center that offers Mandarin classes. But you have to prove that you have applied to it. In that case, is it possible to change? There are friendlier and more enriching environments that Shida’s MTC. From Doraemonster’s statement, I can’t believe they have the same situation going as when I was there 20 years ago. I mean, since they are the default -the famous one- then it is up to the incoming prospective student to do a little homework and see other options. Face it: Shida’s MTC does not have to make any effort, so it doesn’t. I do agree with Doraemonster: I had other choices, I should have taken them. Later, when I attended graduate school in Chengchi, for example, I saw that their language lessons, though not as famous, were more effective in getting people from 0 to functional in a pleasant way. I met people who attended Sun Yat-sen down South and they were happy because they were welcomed.

OP, I understand about leaving other stuff aside and making hard choices for the Mandarin experience. Hence, it is up to you to choose what is best for you. However, at an intermediate level, it might be even harder to find a suitable fit. Call, write, insist, investigate. Demand. Push.

Any government-approved center. The list should be somewhere on the Ministry of Education website. Roughly, those were all or most of the university-affiliated centers. No TLI for example.

Disclaimer: My information is a couple of years old. Some things might have changed since then. This was a blatantly anti-competitive restriction on the part of the government, and I remember there were some attempts to have it relaxed at the time.

It’s possible to switch from one center to another mid-scholarship, might just be cumbersome due to the implications it has for the visa or residence permit. Another thing to consider is that the term dates usually don’t align.

Fair enough.

I’ve taken four or five Mandarin courses at Shida and realize now I’ve never been inside the library.

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I don’t go to Shida, but in my school I actually I like the digressions. Its all chinese practice at the end of the day.

I’ve met 4. 2 regularly slept / constantly watched tik tok in class. The other 2 studied hard though. All of them had good chinese but the 2 lazy ones had a pretty thick accent to the point i still only understand half of what one of them is saying.

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Hi Doraemonster, thanks for your posts, I did 6 months at Shida at intermediate level this year from February 2023 and apart from the book, they use now A course of Contemporary Chinese, everything you wrote is still completely true and relevant. Everything !! I have exactly the same opinion you have on Shida, the only positive thing for me was that I finally managed to understand ‘some’ spoken Mandarin and to feel confident about uttering some easy sentences, but not as much as I expected. I still not speak well, because, as you clearly mentioned, speaking Chinese is not taught at SHIDA MTC. The whole experience was decent because I took the taichi class which was really good, but at the same time, I felt a bit lonely. People were not really friendly nor sociable at Shida, I managed to do a couple of language exchanges, so that added a little bit of spice to the whole experience, but as a whole, anybody learning at MTC should be ready to study a lot by themselves and use the classes not really as a time to actually absorb a lot of knowledge, but rather as a framework to keep you organized and to create a kind of discipline in your learning. I came across several people who were extremely stressed and unhappy at MTC, people with different backgrounds, nationalities, and ages. My two teachers were OK, they didn’t do what they wanted, they had to follow a ’ format ', i.e. going over one lesson each week, 2 dictations a week, and the following week, one test on the lesson studied, plus on that second week, having completed the workbook’s assignments. I spent 3 or 4 hours a day outside of the class studying characters, and writing the assignments. My conclusion is that MTC has no real competition and there are so many students that it is better not to expect too much and it is better to arrive prepared and avoid going to the office, as their answers are so misleading that you could get in trouble. And very true as well, MTC is not going to cater to your particular needs, so people going to MTC should try to come with the mindset that they have to fit somehow, even if it is a bit hard. I don’t have an answer as to what to do to improve the speaking skill… I have met some students who were at level 6 and who did not speak fluently. Anyway, for anybody learning Mandarin at MTC or elsewhere, good luck :slight_smile:

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“Street Chinese” is the way to learn Mandarin. Ditch the classroom and hire an articulate, chatty college student for 300 NT per hour to go out and about the streets of Taipei with you and discuss anything and everything you encounter. The only rule is no English. Draw pictures if you get stuck. Record conversations for later transcription and review.

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Your experience is very similar to my experience at Shida a few years ago. Hated it and felt like it was a terrible learning process. I even attribute my lack of better Chinese partially to Shida’s teaching process. I should have been much better then and much better now.

Shida was very disheartening and uninspiring at a time when I was trying really hard to learn Chinese.

I have much better learning experiences at the language schools.

I even doubled up one semester taking a separate class at a language school and was learning much better and faster and efficiently at the language school. The Shida class just became kind of like scattered refresher.

Granted my goals were conversation, not writing like a native.

Oddly I also taken some French classes there by a French teacher and they were likable efficient inspiring.

This is fascinating. I studied at Shida MTC for a couple of years in the early 1990s. Sounds like it hasn’t changed at all. It’s pretty impressive how institutions in Taiwan can change so little.

That said, studying Chinese there basically works in that people who study for a year or two at a Mandarin Training Center usually go on to learn Chinese quite well. Those who do not study usually never get even close to what I would consider to be an intermediate level… The difference between the studied/not-studied cohorts is pretty striking.

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Good that you managed to learn by using other methods. Which school could you recommend ? I am actually planning to return to Taiwan and will take a private class somewhere, but I don’t know where to go. My problem with private schools is that because you pay, they might be more welcoming and treat you more like an individual, but aren’t all the Chinese teachers in Taiwan trained in the same mould ?

… for some reasons I am not that surprised that they have not changed much…Looking forward to hearing more similar experiences from others who studied there even before… I wonder how it was at the very start, in the 50s or 60… I agree with you that if you combine MTC with living in Taiwan for 2 years, probably you’ll manage to get to a decent conversational level. On the positive side I find the books they use now quite good, the first 4 are geared towards conversation, the other 2, more toward reading and writing. There are many exercises that can be used for conversation but most students in my class, all from Asia, hated to do them, so we only got to go through a couple…