[quote=“JAS”]I don’t think people from working backgrounds have a whole lot of opportunity to climb up the ladder or have access to a quality education.[/quote]Have you ever actually set foot in a British university? I don’t mean Oxford, Cambridge, or Bristol, but one of the other ones.
No joe, he’s correct. Everybody I know spent the early part of their lives in the workhouses. Some of us were even lucky enough to become chimney sweeps!
Bristol 
What is that uni doing on the above-mentioned list? 
I’m British, and yes, I have set foot in many British universities (including the one I did my MSc. at)
Bristol What is that uni doing on the above-mentioned list? [/quote]Bristol and maybe a couple of other places are regarded as “close seconds” to Oxford and Cambridge, whatever that may mean.
[quote=“JAS”]I’m British, and yes, I have set foot in many British universities (including the one I did my MSc. at.)[/quote]OK, but maybe not the ones I know. While there’s debate over state funding, of course, I don’t think elitism as such prevents anyone from getting a decent education in the UK.
I think it’s true that the traditional elite universities do have something of an elitist atmosphere, though of course many people from “working backgrounds” do get into those places.
And I realise that the overall academic ratings of those places are very good. However, I don’t think this means that other universities don’t offer a good education. If you pick and choose the department I think you can do very well for yourself elsewhere.
Well…their diplomas sure look like shit. No wonder the Thais on Khaosan Rd are able to print up fake diplomas for kindy teachers so easily! 
This is a friend’s diploma…he just received it from the university and is none too pleased.
It’s a double-edged sword. Any admissions procedure that is truly egalitarian will admit the best candidates, and often those candidates from public schools (that’s private schools, for you Americans) will have had a better education than those from the state school system, and thus perform better in the admissions procedure. So, should ‘elite’ universities attempt to proactively recruit state-schoolers in an attempt to claim that they are not ‘elitist’, if it means lowering the standard of their students? Or should they just go with the best candidates and ride out the criticism?
Imbalance in the university system is a strong indicator of earlier educational imbalance - the rich can afford good primary and secondary schooling, poor inner-city parents cannot.
I was on the college budget committee at a high-falutin’ American college (tuition $40k/year, ranked #1 liberal arts college in the country by US News and World when I applied) so I know a bit about the finances at elite universities. EVERYBODY is subsidized at these colleges. The average operating expense per student at a place like Princeton, MIT, etc. is about $60-80k/year. Even if you’re the son of a multi-millionaire CEO who’s paying full tuition, you’re still being subsidized to the tune of 20-40k per year by alumni donations and income generated by the endowment. (Unless I guess if you’re the deliquent son of a multi-millionaire and your dad had to fund a lecture hall in his name to get you admitted.)
Now, financial aid is very generous for needy students at these institutions. Even though the nominal tuition at these places is now $40k/year, close to half of the students only pay $5-10k. But part of these aid packages are significant student loans. These loans are typically federally subsidized loans with very low interest rates and are easily deferred. But the average load of student debt for freshly minted B.A. graduates is somewhere around $25k-30k.
Do students in the UK even pay that much total? I remember talking with the SOAS students and they were ticked when they introduced tuition charges sometime in the 90s, so they had to pay a whopping 1000 pounds per semester, while at an elite American school, that’s what you’d pay for a couple of weeks of classes.
Well…accepting lots of students and giving them low or free tuition is all very nice but the big question is:
[i]What’s the failure rate?[/i]
Thirty years ago, more than 50% of my university’s freshman class was gone by the end of May. Only 23% would end up graduating. Last I checked, it is one the top 75 universities in the US. I remember reading a government report here in Taiwan that the local university failure rate over 4 years was less than 2%.
And remember, the US does not have an educational system where students are tested when they’re young and then pushed to graduate as cosmetologists when they’re 15 years old as they are in counties like the Netherlands.
[i][color=green]Mod note: The questions are
- What’s it like for non-Brits to study in the UK,
- Degree recognition issues, and
- Tariff
Any further bickering about who’s snobbier and so on, as well as general discussion of non-British systems not relevant to 1) above will be temped. Stay on topic and be helpful, please. --DB[/color][/i]
[quote=“Dragonbones”][i][color=green]Mod note: The questions are
- What’s it like for non-Brits to study in the UK,
- Degree recognition issues, and
- Tariff
Any further bickering about who’s snobbier and so on, as well as general discussion of non-British systems not relevant to 1) above will be temped. Stay on topic and be helpful, please. --DB[/color][/i][/quote]
I think people in this thread are attempting to ‘have a conversation’, not write a wikipedia entry. In human conversation, themes expand, develop, and yes, veer off course. What’s the point of even reading threads which never veer off topic? It would be easier to just google everything. Haven’t the questions already been answered? Perhaps we should just lock all threads after two or three posts in case any extraneous matter is entered into the discourse.
[quote=“Buttercup”][quote=“Dragonbones”][i][color=green]Mod note: The questions are
- What’s it like for non-Brits to study in the UK,
- Degree recognition issues, and
- Tariff
Any further bickering about who’s snobbier and so on, as well as general discussion of non-British systems not relevant to 1) above will be temped. Stay on topic and be helpful, please. --DB[/color][/i][/quote]
I think people in this thread are attempting to ‘have a conversation’, not write a wikipedia entry. In human conversation, themes expand, develop, and yes, veer off course. What’s the point of even reading threads which never veer off topic? It would be easier to just google everything. Haven’t the questions already been answered? Perhaps we should just lock all threads after two or three posts in case any extraneous matter is entered into the discourse.[/quote]
:offtopic:
Get back to the issue at hand, woman. Somebody wants to know what it’s like studying in the UK. An American wants to know. Please advise about attitudes towards Americans in general, and what common american attitudes/misconceptions are likely to piss people off instead of complaining about the moderating.
Seriously, DB and others, the cultural gap between the UK and USA is a great deal wider than many Americans really appreciate. That famed ‘British sense of humour’, sorry, ‘humor’, that you people are always going on about is real and different from yours. British people complain, criticise, bitch and say nasty things as a way of life. We also have something called sarcasm, and are a good deal less tolerant of things that don’t seem to makes sense.
And we absolutely cannot stand being lectured down to. It’s part of the very real and personal nature of British democracy. Back in the old days, people knew their place. Nowadays, anybody tries to put you down in any way at all then you bite back. If someone who doesn’t know any better starts with this class bullshit then most people take that not only as a criticism of the country but as a direct and personal challenge. And they respond in British fashion.
You might not like to see bickering in threads, and you have a point, but it serves a purpose in this case because it illustrates exactly the sort of problem Nama’s friend may encounter if not properly warned. Similarly, lecturing Brits about not behaving like Brits is only going to make people dislike you. I’m serious.
Responding robustly to uninformed or prejudiced criticism does not make someone anti-American. Observing that the USA is not the centre of the universe is not anti-American. Pointing out that an American can study in London without being subject to all the horrors beloved of certain commentators overseas is a valid response. If a discussion ensues about what the truth is about the UK education, and social, system then it can only serve to educate and inform the OP.
Temping parts of it may be helpful, possibly, but Any further … general discussion of non-British systems not relevant to 1) above will be temped sounds - to British ears - much the same as “now children, don’t argue about the reality, just content yourself with Harry Potter-esque stereotypes of life in dear old Blighty and talk about the cost of a loaf of bread.”
Nama, another issue your friend may encounter is that of language.
Or should I say ‘language snobbery’?
Most Brits believe that their flavour of English is better than that used across the pond. It’s not simply a question of style or pronunciation, there is also the question of effective communication.
Many intellectual types proclaim regularly that American news reporting is dire largely because of the limitations imposed by the restricted language. If, for instance, your language (in common usage) doesn’t differentiate between ‘ensure’ and ‘insure’ then any discussion about action to direct or mitigate future events becomes that bit more confusing.
Obviously there are people here who will argue about the truth of the example above, and that’s the point. People will argue. Your friend should be prepared for a certain amount of rivalry from people who need to assert themselves as better, maybe because they’ve heard too many comments from Americans about how their way is best. Your friend, even if he is the nicest guy on Earth, is the representative of his country and will have to fight all the stereotypes perpetuated by the worst examples of his culture.
In addition, reporting is a realm where personal politics will inevitably intrude. Contempt for the current US administration is widespread among British journalistic types, not least because of Mr Bush’s way with words. Language snobbery meets political conviction. Best be prepared for that too.
Fortunately, although some individuals are unable to think cleary about the realities, the majority will treat your friend as an individual. He should have the opportunity to explain that he doesn’t subscribe to some of the views aired earlier in this thread, although he should be prepared for tough questions. Journalists, remember?