Starting next semester (when I have more free time) I plan on studying zhuyin so that when I arrive in Taiwan I’ll know it pretty well.
That said, does anyone know any good websites for foreigners learning zhuyin?
You could start with Wikipedia and its links.
I haven’t looked into too much Zhuyin software. For the Mac, there is Aiya! It is a bopomofo quiz app.
[quote=“gary”]You could start with Wikipedia and its links.
I haven’t looked into too much Zhuyin software. For the Mac, there is Aiya! It is a bopomofo quiz app.[/quote]
Geeze, you’re right! I didn’t even think of Wiki! 
[quote=“golfmade”][quote=“gary”]You could start with Wikipedia and its links.
I haven’t looked into too much Zhuyin software. For the Mac, there is Aiya! It is a bopomofo quiz app.[/quote]
Geeze, you’re right! I didn’t even think of Wiki! [/quote]
It’s always one of the first places I check. I usually Google; Wikipedia often comes up as a top hit.
It would really help if I could get some ‘stickers’ of the zhuyin characters and put them on my keyboard.
If you want to keep lerning Chinese in Taiwan, learn Zhuyin for sure, but I wouldn’t bother tryingt o learnt o type it. It’s simply much easier typing in Hanyu Pinyin (you mentioned you’ve studied for 2 years, so I expect you know HP already - make sure you start learning traditional characters too, if you’ve studied simplified).
brian
You don’t really need to know zhuyin in Taiwan. I know, I know, some people will jump up and down about this. However, I haven’t learnt it, and it certainly didn’t disadvantage me either in Chinese classes (the teachers know - rough enough - hanyu pinyin) or out on the street. The only thing is that I am slower reading kiddy books etc that has zhuyin on the side.
I don’t want to start an extended discussion the merits of each system, but I do think that you can do ok in Taiwan without it. If you’re keen, go for it tho.
edit: this only applies to those who speak Chinese ok before they get here. I’m not sure if learning zhuyin is necessary if you start learning here, as I already spoke a bit before I got here
I appreciated learning ZhuYin in the beginning, mostly because everyone here knows it, so if you need something written down (can’t quite hear the pronunciation or whatnot) they’re able to do it. HP isn’t common enough here for your average person on the street to be able to do it.
The other thing that it helps with is conceptualizing the way Chinese words are put together: Xi Yi Ang: xiang. Sometimes (for me anyway) shang and xiang, for example sound very similar. But if I say ‘xi-yi-ang, sh-ang?’ the person I’m asking will know what I’m asking and make it clear for me.
Just my two cents. If you’re already speaking Chinese this may not apply. I also agree that trying to learn to type ZhuYin is a waste of time, unless you just want to torture yourself. HP is waaaaay faster, even if you’re a hunt-and-peck typist.
I can type pretty quickly using HP, however zhuyin is something I want to learn, besides once I’ve got it down I will pat myself on the back and move on to studying other aspects of the language.
Whilst I agree that you can get by without knowing Zhuyin and not miss out on much, I do think it comes in useful occasionally and is worth learning. And what’s learning another 37 simple symbols in the whole scale of learning Chinese? You can do it over a few days.
Doh. I taught myself how to type in Zhuyin (slowly), simply because nearly all the computers I use just have that or horrible input methods like Cangjie and Boshiamy to choose from. Now you clever people are going to tell me how easy is it is to install a Hanyu Pinyin IME, whilst I go and lament my wasted hours
I may get pelted by vegetables here, but I think Zhuyin should be the only way to go for a serious student of Chinese. By starting out with bopomofo, I really had to pay attention to the sounds, rather than (perhaps unconsciously) assume that I already had a handle on them because gee, Hanyu Pinyin looks like English letters.
I’ve known quite a few people who had their pronunciation more or less permanently corrupted by Pinyin–ten years on, they still say the Chinese word for “I” as something like “whoah” (like you’re trying to get a horse to stop). And of course, that’s because “wo” in Pinyin looks like “whoah” to some students–and they won’t stop and actually listen to how the word is pronounced, 'cause they think they already know it.
On the other hand, I can see that Pinyin would be an excellent shortcut for the casual student, or for the tourist. But if you’re coming halfway around the world to try to seriously learn a language as crazy as Chinese, it’s a little late in the day to be looking for shortcuts.
So bravo, golfmade! :bravo: :bravo: :bravo:
For what it is worth I’m reasonably conversant in Mandarin, never studied it in school, wouldn’t know zhuyin from squat, and know about twenty characters. I do however study rather a lot with Hanyu PinYin and actively seek out opportunities to use what I learn.
[quote=“Sam Vimes”]I may get pelted by vegetables here, but I think Zhuyin should be the only way to go for a serious student of Chinese. By starting out with bopomofo, I really had to pay attention to the sounds, rather than (perhaps unconsciously) assume that I already had a handle on them because gee, Hanyu Pinyin looks like English letters.
I’ve known quite a few people who had their pronunciation more or less permanently corrupted by Pinyin–ten years on, they still say the Chinese word for “I” as something like “whoah” (like you’re trying to get a horse to stop). And of course, that’s because “wo” in Pinyin looks like “whoah” to some students–and they won’t stop and actually listen to how the word is pronounced, 'cause they think they already know it. [/quote]
I think that the problem with hanyu pinyin cuts in when students assume that because it looks like English, then you pronounce it like you would English. This is a serious problem and can cause big problems for students. However, if you’ve got a decent teacher and half a brain you can figure out pretty quickly that you have to think about it as being ‘hanyu pinyin’, not English. From then on it’s pretty easy.
[quote=“Sam Vimes”]On the other hand, I can see that Pinyin would be an excellent shortcut for the casual student, or for the tourist. But if you’re coming halfway around the world to try to seriously learn a language as crazy as Chinese, it’s a little late in the day to be looking for shortcuts.
[/quote]
Heaps of people on the Mainland speak good Mandarin and have only studied using hanyu pinyin (this includes native speakers, who use only hanyu pinyin in school). Saying that you can only be a serious student of Chinese if you learn zhuyin fuhao is crazy and shows how effective Taiwanese propaganda can be.
Just say to yourself Hanyu PinYin/ English… Hanyu PinYin/ English… with the appropriate gesticulations and changes in intonation and within a few moments the general concept at least should become crystal clear.
In fairness to Sam though it must be admitted that people in China don’t have the same interferance from English that a waiguoren would have. I wonder if they get it from Mandarin though when they study English? Do mainlanders talk about sesh in the city for example?
Didn’t mean for this to become a debate, obviously people have different opinions and that is fine.
Bopomofo is useful for discussing pronunciation with locals inTaiwan and for understanding how to pronounce obscure characters, which are often printed or displayed with the bopomofo pronunciation next to them.
There’s nothing wrong with learning zhuyin. As someone else mentioned, it’s a drop in the bucket compared with learning the however many thousands of traditional Chinese characters necessary to be literate. That being said, if you have a good enough grasp of HP, there’s no need to learn zhuyin at all. There are plenty of traditional Chinese dictionaries (electronic and paper) that use HP; you can type in traditional Chinese with HP on both Macs and Windows; if you’re unfamiliar with how to pronounce a character, you can just ask someone how to say it and write it down yourself in HP.
The only thing that I’ve ever run to that was necessary to use zhuyin was texting in Chinese on some mobile phones. Nokias and Motorolas (or at least the ones I’ve tried in the mobile shops) don’t have HP for text input. Benq’s, on the other hand, do have HP for Chinese input, so my last couple of phones have been Benq’s.
For what it’s worth, my Motorola V220 has both ZY and HP input available. After struggling mightily to master ZY on that little keypad, I finally switched to HP and began having real text conversations.
Wow. You really are new around here!
While there are pros and cons for both Zhuyin Fuhao and Hanyu Pinyin, I’d say get a good foundation in HP.
With HP, you dont need to learn all of those extra symbols, and it is also the most common system in use. It’s fastest and easiest for electronic input and dictionary look-up. Like other posters said, learn the proper sounds rather than the “English” sounds. The phonetic rules with HP are much more clear and straightforward.
With Zhuyin, many of the symbols are also radicals, so this can speed up your learning in terms of writing and technical knowledge. Zhuyin is only used in Taiwan, and in some Chinatowns overseas, but that will probably change as Taiwanese immigrants are displaced by more and more mainland Chinese. Some of the words are “spelled” in a rather stupid manner though. example 中 zhong (HP) zhi+wu+ong (Zhuyin).
Regarding mobile phones, almost every phone will have WuBi (five strokes), Zhuyin, and HP input, but according to some motorola and nokia salesgirls, nokia does not support HP, and there is no way to install HP input on a nokia phone. Someone please correct me if you know otherwise. When I bought my new nokia, I had to learn Zhuyin and WuBi. Both are worth learning for curiousity’s sake, but HP is still the most useful.