Subject / Object Pronouns and Too / Neither

I am having a bit of a debate with my wife. We saw a worksheet at school that was written by a Chinese teacher. It looked like this on one side:

  1. I don’t like that movie. Me, either.
  2. She doesn’t think that he is a nice person. She, ________. (missing word in answer key was “either”)

It went on, using object pronouns with “either” to express agreement in negative opinion. On the other side, it looked like this:

  1. I am happy to see you. Me, too.
  2. I am confused about this article. She, ______. (missing word in answer key was “too”)

Now this is a very simple exercise, but it immediately struck me that something seemed wrong. Now, this is the only area of grammar that I have never truly felt positive about. To me, “Me, either.” should be “Me, neither.” Now, with “me” being a personal object pronoun, it should follow that, “She, either” and “She, neither” are both wrong. Shouldn’t it be, “Her, neither”? I felt the same about the second question in the second set. “Me, too” seems fine, but shouldn’t “She, too” be “Her, too”? Still, it still sounds a bit stilted to me. I did a bit of digging and it appeared from a few sources that the likes of “Me, too”, “Me, neither” and any variation with an object pronoun is “idiomatic English”. An example is this:

english.stackexchange.com/questi … -incorrect

I am not sure what view to take on this, so for the moment, I am replacing the likes of “Her, too / She, too” with something safer like “She does, too” and “So does she” as I am certain that they are grammatically correct. I don’t want to give my kids something that I myself am unsure about.

Does anyone know enough to be able to clarify this?

“Me (n)either” is technically ungrammatical (should be “Neither do I”), but it’s so common that it’s entered the realm of normal, idiomatic speech. This doesn’t apply to the third person pronouns. Thus “She, neither” never became idiomatic; this is why it sounds so weird and wrong. But “Neither does she” remains grammatical.

Good call. Teach what you know to be correct. Go with your instincts (checking them against grammar books written by native speakers when possible of course), and be suspicious of materials written by NON-native speakers which sound wrong to you.

Me neither and Me too are both very informal and only used in spoken language.
They can only be used with 1st person singular agreement. That would explain why she etc feels wrong.
Me either seems to be acceptable as well although it doesn’t sit well with me. It is used by Native speakers in informal speech so it should be deemed acceptable in spoken language.
Like dragonbones said. 100% for sticking with what feels right.

(I was suprised to hear ‘me, either’ a lot in the USA. I’m a Brit, and always sais ‘neither do I,’ if that helps.)

There’s no point trying to fix this, as it’s your word against a local. You’re just going to be a troublemaker if you try to argue about this, right or wrong.

Taiwanese make a big deal about the idea that idiomatic English is somehow more authentic than formal English. It’s almost as if being able to talk like any idiot is better than observing the standards that work for eg all the best-selling writers. I think it’s actually a bullshit argument concocted to hide their emotional discomfort at being forced to follow so many arbitrary (to them) rules about how you formulate a sentence. I can guarantee you that if you say “X is correct in 99% of cases” then they will reply “yes, but I heard George Bush say …”

I always insist that my students answer me with sentences containing a verb and at least one of subject/object. It’s not because that’s always the ‘correct’ response, it’s because I don’t want them to focus on the one-word answer that provides the missing information. A few years ago, someone replied to a question about her choice of career with “because pretty.” She knows all those words like “I” and “am” but chose not to use them because her entire education to that point had revolved around stupid one-word answers.

She doesn’t like that movie. I don’t like that movie either.
She doesn’t like that movie. I don’t like it either.
She doesn’t like that movie. I don’t either.
She doesn’t like that movie. Me, either.

Which one is more likely to help them develop good habits in the way they use English? Are the students already super-advanced, to the point that they never forget to use the past tense?

Q: She didn’t like that movie.
A: Me, either!!! Woohoo, we avoided having to think about English. Let’s do it again.

Q: She has been planning to do this since she first started learning English when she was a child.
A: Me, too!!! Wahay, this is easy! I am speak right English idiom like native-speaker.

Just teach them, “Fuckin’ ay!” That should suffice in North America for all of the examples you gave us.

I don’t like that movie. She doesn’t like the movie either.
I don’t like that movie. She doesn’t like it either.
I don’t like that movie. She doesn’t either/Neither does she.

“She either” and “She neither” are both wrong, of course. “Me either” is pretty much always wrong too, I think. Should be “Me, too” “Me neither” is fine.

By the way Loretta, I absolutely agree. I hate one word answers with a fiery passion.

[quote=“dashgalaxy86”]I don’t like that movie. She doesn’t like the movie either.
I don’t like that movie. She doesn’t like it either.
I don’t like that movie. She doesn’t either/Neither does she.

“She either” and “She neither” are both wrong, of course. “Me either” is pretty much always wrong too, I think. Should be “Me, too” “Me neither” is fine.

By the way Loretta, I absolutely agree. I hate one word answers with a fiery passion.[/quote]
You need to look at how the language is actually used by native speakers before you can claim that something is wrong. “Me neither” and “me either” are both acceptable in spoken language. There is no logical reason as to how it developed and it is NOT grammatically correct if we look at written language but there are many linguists who consider the grammar of written and spoken language to be different hence the fact that short “chunks” of language are accepted in spoken discourse.

In you last example, would you consider “Nor does she” correct or incorrect. Would you ever say it?

[quote=“heimuoshu”][quote=“dashgalaxy86”]I don’t like that movie. She doesn’t like the movie either.
I don’t like that movie. She doesn’t like it either.
I don’t like that movie. She doesn’t either/Neither does she.

“She either” and “She neither” are both wrong, of course. “Me either” is pretty much always wrong too, I think. Should be “Me, too” “Me neither” is fine.

By the way Loretta, I absolutely agree. I hate one word answers with a fiery passion.[/quote]
You need to look at how the language is actually used by native speakers before you can claim that something is wrong. “Me neither” and “me either” are both acceptable in spoken language. There is no logical reason as to how it developed and it is NOT grammatically correct if we look at written language but there are many linguists who consider the grammar of written and spoken language to be different hence the fact that short “chunks” of language are accepted in spoken discourse.

In you last example, would you consider “Nor does she” correct or incorrect. Would you ever say it?[/quote]
I would consider it correct, but colloquial language is subjective. The point of teaching English isn’t just to make them speak lazily like native speakers, but to help them to learn how to speak properly, professionally, and fluently, and know how to balance this with colloquialisms, etc. “Me either” strikes me as wrong. In (Midwest, at least) America and England, “Me either” seems to be flat out non-idiomatic. It really depends on who your tutor is, or which region you want to emulate. But that’s for only the most advanced students to even consider. An average Taiwanese student should be satisfied to know “Me neither” is right in most cases and “Me either” is wrong. “She either” is not used anywhere that I’ve ever heard of before, so if you’re cool with language books just making shit up, that’s your own deal I guess. Anyway, this explains the issue at hand quite well. answers.yahoo.com/question/index … 055AA9nHSb

amazon.com/Practical-English … 019431197X

Michael Swan disagrees with you. See page 350 nr 374 sub heading 2.
I have no opinion.

Is there anyone here to whom “Me either” actually sounds OK? I know some books say that “Me neither” and “Me either” are both fine, but to me “Me either” just sounds wrong. (This is also what I tell my students: books say it’s fine, and their high school textbooks seem to encourage it, but I don’t like it.)

I’ve always assumed it’s regional, and “Me either” is common in some areas. But which areas are these?

(Mind you, I still prefer the answer “Me either” to the all-too-common “En”, or however one spells that noncommittal semi-grunt that some think passes for an adequate response in English.)

In every language class I took while growing up, we were taught always to answer in full sentences. Do they not teach this in Taiwan’s schools?

In every language class I took while growing up, we were taught always to answer in full sentences. Do they not teach this in Taiwan’s schools?[/quote]
Which is why the Candians who learnt French are so fluent in it.
Which is why the Americans who learnt Spanish are so fluent in it.
Which is why research indicates that it doesn’t work.
Which is why those of us who are teaching second language here in Asia are so marvelous at acquiring second languages and then we want to teach what makes sense to us but doesn’t work in practice.
What works with beginners “My name is Peter” as opposed to “Peter” does not mean it will work with more advanced learners. You need actual methods and the full sentence drill doesn’t work. But don’t take my word for it.

To me, “Me either” sounds like something a child or a poorly educated person might say.

In every language class I took while growing up, we were taught always to answer in full sentences. Do they not teach this in Taiwan’s schools?[/quote]
What works with beginners “My name is Peter” as opposed to “Peter” does not mean it will work with more advanced learners. You need actual methods and the full sentence drill doesn’t work. But don’t take my word for it.[/quote]
I never meet advanced learners in Taiwan. I meet adults with ten, or even twenty, years of experience of English classes who cannot consistently form coherent sentences. And they’re trying to pass tests like TOEFL or IELTS, or negotiate contracts with customers overseas.

I am not trying to teach language. I am trying to teach people the habit of forming sentences, so that they can use the knowledge they have supposedly learned in the past. Once they get into the habit of speaking in sentences, we can start to build paragraphs and organising them properly. Then they can reach their goals. There are times when a one-word answer is appropriate, but my students generally don’t get the point that sometimes you have to say “I’m really sorry we missed the deadline, but there was a typhoon a few days ago and production was disrupted by flooding. Everyone is working round the clock to get the factory operational again, and we hope to ship your goods on Friday.”

In every language class I took while growing up, we were taught always to answer in full sentences. Do they not teach this in Taiwan’s schools?[/quote]
What works with beginners “My name is Peter” as opposed to “Peter” does not mean it will work with more advanced learners. You need actual methods and the full sentence drill doesn’t work. But don’t take my word for it.[/quote]
I never meet advanced learners in Taiwan. I meet adults with ten, or even twenty, years of experience of English classes who cannot consistently form coherent sentences. And they’re trying to pass tests like TOEFL or IELTS, or negotiate contracts with customers overseas.

I am not trying to teach language. I am trying to teach people the habit of forming sentences, so that they can use the knowledge they have supposedly learned in the past. Once they get into the habit of speaking in sentences, we can start to build paragraphs and organising them properly. Then they can reach their goals. There are times when a one-word answer is appropriate, but my students generally don’t get the point that sometimes you have to say “I’m really sorry we missed the deadline, but there was a typhoon a few days ago and production was disrupted by flooding. Everyone is working round the clock to get the factory operational again, and we hope to ship your goods on Friday.”[/quote]
I agree 100%. What’s more, in my experience, students easily pick up the short answers once they’ve mastered the long ones. Trying to force “natural” short answers on students because it’s easier just makes one a lazy teacher in my opinion, and makes for some really dull conversation. “What did you do last weekend?” “See a movie.” “Did you like the movie?” “Yes, I did.” “Why did you like it?” “Because… uhhh…” Chances are, and you know who you are, if you try to let them use short answers like this you’re going to get some horrible sentences and a lot of students who have no idea how to hold a genuine conversation.
Consider this contrary example you could expect from my 7 year old students from Hess:
“What did you do last weekend?” “I saw a movie last weekend.” “Did you like the movie?” “Yes, I did. I liked the movie.” “Why did you like it?” “I liked it because it was funny.”
By the time they hit 8 years old they know where to drop words or even entire sentences to make the sentence more natural. A kid who learned only the bare minimum “Yes, I do.” kind of answers is going to suffer in the long run, end of story.

I tend to agree more with the Thornburies, Harmers and Urs of the world than with the above, but maybe it’s just me.
I also find it hard to believe that one can not find advanced learners in Taiwan. We shouldn’t base our whole opinion on teaching speaking based on one experience dealing with young kids.
Just saying…

[quote=“heimuoshu”]I tend to agree more with the Thornburies, Harmers and Urs of the world than with the above, but maybe it’s just me.
I also find it hard to believe that one can not find advanced learners in Taiwan. We shouldn’t base our whole opinion on teaching speaking based on one experience dealing with young kids.
Just saying…[/quote]
Well I think I’ve taught maybe… 12 separate classes of kids ages 6-8, if that clarifies, and I’m sure Loretta can put my number to shame. 4 of those classes were complete immersion, another class was totally bilingual and fluent for their age, and 2 others were American School curriculum programs. This year I’ve been hired as a legit non-cram school teacher at a famous elementary school here after several teaching demos, so apparently the interviewers of this very famous bilingual school liked my method enough (I beat out 5 or 6 other teachers, some with higher qualifications).
So I wouldn’t say it’s based on ONE experience.

To be honest, isn’t the problem a lack of meaningful and comprehensible input?

I had students in so-called advanced classes at Hess who could do all sorts of substitution drills or who could reply with the scripted answer, but I still couldn’t have a real conversation with them. I would say real fluency should be judged by the ability to really create or respond to novel language, even if the response is to ask for clarification or further explanation, and then go from there.

I really wouldn’t take that as novel in any way. Maybe the kids could say more than that, but I don’t think that alone really means very much.

What I meant by ONE experience is that you are basing everything on dealing with beginners. The majority of high school students who get 90% and more on their school tests are still just beginners. The majority are at CEFR A2 level. They are never taught to negotiate meaning in communication, conversation repair strategies, coping strategies etc. They never need to use it unless they want to be really good at spoken interaction. It is a completely different skill from producing drilled utterances. Nothing wrong with formulaic language and chunks, which is why both me neither and me either is and should be acceptable.