[quote=“sulavaca”]
I wouldn’t put Yamaha on my shopping list as the parts are WAY too expensive and are often not as reliable as local Kymco and SYM brands.
[/quote]That is far from the truth. Kymco and SYM are made in Taiwan, and like almost everything made in Taiwan, it’s crap.
Yamaha genuine Japanese parts are nearly three times the price of Taiwan parts, true, and that’s in big parts because the quality doesn’t compare. I’m thinking transmission parts, electrical part, throttle and break cables, break cylinders and calipers, suspension, etc, etc.
I buy all Yamaha parts for my Yamaha, and my wife doesn’t want to spend the money so she buys the Taiwanese parts. My bike breaks twice better than hers. I have a new cylinder and caliper (Yamaha), she has a new cylinder and caliper (Taiwanese). It doesn’t compare. My front forks are the original forks. They are 9 years old. I replace the oil and clean them up every 12 months or so and they are in impeccable condition. My wife’s forks are less than 2 years old and they are already soft, sloppy and the rubber membrane is torn already. Crap. My wife needed a CDI. She bought the second grade Taiwanese one for 500NT instead of the Yamaha one for nearly 3k. It lasted about 6 months before it became faulty again. I needed a CDI, too. I bought a used Yamaha one at a scrap yard for 100NT and it’s been good for two years now. My scooter is set up to have good acceleration so it’s hard on the tranny. Taiwanese pulleys and clutch assembly lasts about three months before I start losing acceleration and from there I have to open it up and grease everything almost monthly. OTOH, if I put in Yamaha genuine tranny parts, I can beat the bike up for at least 6 months without any problems.
Every single Yamaha part has a local equivalent which you can buy for a lot cheaper. So if you think that Kymco and SYM parts are better, than you can buy that for your Yamaha. At the end of the day, it is cheaper but you get what you pay for… If you buy a Kymco or a SYM, they are built with the low grade cheaper parts… They depreciate and they fall apart quicker. MUCH quicker. But f you buy a Yamaha, then you get to choose either you want the good parts or the cheap parts when something needs to be fixed.
That’s my experience and it’s my opinion based on owning 2 Yamahas for 5 years and playing around trying local parts and Yamaha genuine parts. The difference in quality and reliability is drastic. If I was in the market for a new scoot with a 60k budget, I would not even look at Kymco or SYM.
[quote=“marboulette”][quote=“sulavaca”]
I wouldn’t put Yamaha on my shopping list as the parts are WAY too expensive and are often not as reliable as local Kymco and SYM brands.
[/quote]That is far from the truth. Kymco and SYM are made in Taiwan, and like almost everything made in Taiwan, it’s crap.
Yamaha genuine Japanese parts are nearly three times the price of Taiwan parts, true, and that’s in big parts because the quality doesn’t compare…
I buy all Yamaha parts for my Yamaha, and my wife doesn’t want to spend the money so she buys the Taiwanese parts. My bike breaks twice better than hers…[/quote]
So the lesson is if you are purchase a less reliable Yamaha [on average], then purchse the origional manufacturer’s parts which are more reliable yet more expensive than Taiwan made spurious parts. I don’t have a problem with this statement, and it is correct to say.
This does not take anything away from Taiwanese designed and built scooters such as Kymco and SYM, and is not a comparison though. I have no argument that replacing Yamaha parts with Yamaha parts is the best thing to do. That’s just obvious, and rule of thumb when servicing or repairing most things. Using origional parts is usually the more reliable way to go. Notice I didn’t say economic though as that isn’t always the case.
My point however is that most people in the business believe Yamaha small scooters to be specific are not as good quality than SYM and Kymco brands and are also more expensive to run.
It is not simply the opinion of businesses I know either, but also of most friends who have owned Yamaha and owned other brands too.
Still, each to his own, and it seems you are enjoying your so far. Good for you.
I liked the T-Rex too but HOLY MOLY what’s up with those big hips?(thats what I call the sides in the back) I’m a skinny 49kg girl and I tried parking one of those, and lifting it, and its impossible. It’s also soooo broad in the back that its damn hard to squeeze it into parking spots.
I guess I’m under the assumption that since the made in Taiwan parts are crap, then scooters made in Taiwan would be assembled with similar quality parts. I’m pretty sure that’s the case. So that certainly does take away from Taiwanese built scooters. Are the made in Taiwan Yamaha replacement parts of lesser quality than the parts used on Kymcos and SYMs? I doubt it. This is the first time I hear Kymco and SYM talked about with such praises. Japanese scooters always win the vote in terms of reliability and superior design.
B9,
A friend left a Tyrex 150 with me after he left Taiwan. I sold it for him but I got to ride it for a few weeks. You are right, it’s really heavy. Not only that, but the distance between the wheels is longer than many scooters. It doesn’t turn on a dime and it is indeed quite wide so it is difficult to park. The one I rode had a very angled kickstand so it leaned quite a bit which meant that you needed a larger parking spot, too. But man was that scooter fast. The owner had just serviced the transmission and it was set so that when you opened it up, it went up to 8000rpm and it stayed there until you reached about 110km/hr. I could do wheelies with that scooter. It’s mad.
Overall, I liked the power but that was it. It is too big, and mostly, it is way too stiff. It’s good for leaning around corners but it’s too bumpy for day to day riding.
Some excellent posts that give me a bit to think about. Thanks a lot Forumosans.
This is how I am thinking about it thus far:
I like the look of the hartford scooter but not entirely sure about costs to run it. I’ll take one for a spin.
Interesting debate between Japanese (Yamaha) and Taiwanese (SYM and Kymco)
Better quality from the Yamaha makes sense. But in the course of 3-4 years will I spend a lot more on the Yamaha cause the parts are more expensive or the others cause I’ll have to get repairs more often?
I think i’m gonna give 250’s a miss. Too big. Hard to park.
Gonna go to the shop this weekend and have a look. I’m also kind of thinking about just buying a cheapish second hand scooter that will run for a couple of years and then waiting a few months to add to my budget and getting a decent used car. Hmmmmm :moped:
Goodness me. If personal opinion wasn’t enough to suggest a Taiwan designed and built bike and even the opinion of professionals and then we go to the awards category finding SYM still takes the cake, then sure, go ahead and purchase a Japanese bike. That’s the ticket! :loco:
Bah! I don’t know why I’m working myself up. What am I? Six?
Lo Bo To -
One item I mentioned is, I think, worth your consideration.
Whatever brand you decide on, give a close look at their facility. The lay-out of the shop, the supplies they have available, something as simple as how clean the place is, how do they dispose of old oil and such, do they have the required tools to do the service correctly, are they hooked up to the EPA network so they can do your emissions testing conveniently for you, do they take the time to talk to you about your service after sale needs, etc.
I think you get the idea. These are things that, IMO, really will make the difference in less to worry about if & when you have a problem.
Most new model 'scooters sold here will be a dependable ride as long as you recognize its limits and keep it maintained.
[quote=“sulavaca”]Goodness me. If personal opinion wasn’t enough to suggest a Taiwan designed and built bike and even the opinion of professionals and then we go to the awards category finding SYM still takes the cake, then sure, go ahead and purchase a Japanese bike. That’s the ticket! :loco:
Bah! I don’t know why I’m working myself up. What am I? Six?
Whatever. Have a great time whichever you get. [/quote]The link to the award for SYM is in India, man. The scooter in question is basically a replica of a model similar to the Jockey 125 that came out in Taiwan more than 5 years ago. They are just beginning to import automatic/gear-less scooters in India, and SYM is one of the few they can feasibly import at the moment and that’s because they are dirt cheap compared with Japanese models. The SYM that won said award doesn’t even have front disk breaks, dude. It’s like a low end Jockey. Have a look:
Here’s a few excerpts from your link:
OK, that’s cool, but…
[quote]Flyte also brings benefit of new, cutting-edge technology to scooters – such as telescopic front suspension [/quote]Do you realize how long telescopic front suspensions have been around in Taiwan? Makes you wonder where these people live… Oh wait… India…
And my favorite:[quote]Kinetic Motor Company is India’s pioneer in gear-less scooters. [/quote]Well… At least they are catching up… But still, gear-less scooters are not common in India. They still ride the cheaper semi-automatic models such as what was more common in Taiwan 15-20 years ago.
Better quality from the Yamaha makes sense. But in the course of 3-4 years will I spend a lot more on the Yamaha cause the parts are more expensive or the others cause I’ll have to get repairs more often?
[/quote]You’ll definitely waste more money on the Taiwanese models, IMO. Besides, as I said, you can always buy the after market parts for a Japanese scooter and you’ll basically have a bike that is partly Japanese and partly Taiwanese. The cost will be the same for after market parts as it is for a SYM or a Kymco. This said, I would stick to Japanese parts. Pay a little more and down the line it will be cheaper.
Sorry, sulavaca. I’m not intentionally argumentative. I think the OP asked a question to which you are providing inaccurate answers.
I too totally have to agree with marboulette. In the 4 years I have been here I have had so much better luck with my Yamaha’s and their quality parts. Just as a perfect example, my roommate and I have the same 50cc Yamaha scooter that we have spunked up for shits and giggles. Anyway, we both bought new rollers 2 months ago, I bought the Yamaha ones and he bought the Taiwanese ones. He had to replace his rollers again two days ago, basically they had disintegrated. It was F…ed up. I have owned over 10 scooters since I have been here, and a handful of motorcycles ( I buy cheaps and fix them up and then resell them.) I would totally go with a Yamaha for reliability. There is nothing wrong with Kymcos, and they are usually cheaper, but like it was said ealier, “You get what you pay for.”
[quote]Flyte also brings benefit of new, cutting-edge technology to scooters – such as telescopic front suspension [/quote]Do you realize how long telescopic front suspension have been around Taiwan? Makes you wonder where these people live… Oh wait… India…
And my favorite:[quote]Kinetic Motor Company is India’s pioneer in gear-less scooters. [/quote]Well… At least they are catching up… But still, gear-less scooters are not common in India. They still ride the cheaper semi-automatic models such as what was more common in Taiwan 15-20 years ago.
marboulette[/quote]
India is an excellent example of comparisons between brands. Yamaha Industries have had complete control over their plant in India since about 1995, and since then or even before then, haven’t been nearly as popular in the scooter market. SYM/Kentic launches their Jockey and its an immediate success. It is the coupling of reliability and value for money that makes it the most competitive bike in the Indian market. You can trust Indians to weigh value for money more so than just about anywhere else on the planet, so an award in India of this caliber should not be sniffed at.
If you want to look at Taiwan sales they go Kymco 1st SYM 2nd and Yamaha 3rd, in case you want to go by customer preference.
If you take notice of Yamaha models also, you may notice that they are updated more frequently than other brands. Yamaha’s campaign has always consisted of bringing out new models for the high frequency purchasing younger groups to absorb, which works to its favor. Kymco’s take on the market is to provide fewer new models, but more reliable, more predictable bikes. This is very similar to practice to Taiwan’s Toyota and Nissan Brands. If you look at Kymco or SYM power plants, you will see that they haven’t changed much at all over the years, which is why many accuse them of being boring and slogging out the same stuff year after year. But they return more investment after usage too as parts are available for much longer than Yamaha models.
You can guarantee in Taiwan that if something isn’t a good investment, then it simply won’t sell. Taiwanese crave reliability and value for money. Going back to the Toyota and Nissan cars, Toyota again takes a massive majority of sales not because they offer more for your money, but because they are more reliable and don’t depreciate as quickly.
Taiwanese are not easily shed of their pennies, believe me. Unless they are young and have just slapped eyes on a fancy shiny looking thing and can purchase it with daddy’s credit card.
I guess I look at them more from a technician’s stance rather than a customer. I’m more interested in what technicians say and figures, than what the bikes look like. Not that I don’t have a bike myself. I had a Kymco Movie for 5 years, and now I have an SYM gas bottle delivering style Wild Wolf model which is three years old (another world best seller). I can’t imagine a cheaper bike to run than my present bike, but I know it isn’t a scooter so doesn’t count in this topic.
I don’t praise all Taiwan designed and built models. The Dinks and whatever the SYM model is called are most commonly referred to as crap, by anyone in the business, but it’s the bread and butter 125cc lunch boxes that I am specific about.
Then there’s the SYM/Honda Cub, which also hasn’t been mentioned. The best selling bike in the world. O.K. it isn’t a looker, but I’m a practical kind of guy. And, I know, again it isn’t specifically what we’re talking about.
These two bikes I’ve just mentioned though do reflect how much Honda technology is still used by Kymco and SYM, and so I do give praise to the Japanese, don’t get me wrong.
I agree with a lot of what you say, but this statement you made is totally wrong in my opinion…no offense. The Taiwanese love to show off, and buy outrageously too expensive cars and motorcycles for their needs. Hence why you see lots of “big bikes” recently, which for the Taiwan market isn’t a good investment at all. They are so over priced, and only recently are they allowed on some expressways ( I love big bikes, I think they are great, I wish I had one, but I think they are a bad investment, especially in Taiwan.) I also don’t even think many people are qualified to service them yet. Also you see loads of BMW’s, Benz, even Jaguars around town. Now c’mon those are not good investments, a waste of money in Taiwan. Sorry, sorry sorry, I apologize, I know this is way off topic.
You know if you take care of your scoot, then in the long run whatever you buy, whatever brand it is then it should last. I still own my 50cc Yamaha Cabin that I bought off a foreigner for $3,000nt 4 years ago. I always change the gear oil (50nt) about every 3 months, yeah and I have to buy new drum brake pads for it all the time, replace the spark plug and wire here and there, add two stroke oil…but in the 4 years that I drive it everyday it still runs fine. Starts like a champ, I had a belt break once. This is my daily driver, but I take care of it. So whatever you decide on, just take care of it and 9 times out of 10 is should be fine. This scoot was the best investment that I have ever bought in my life.
I bought a little SYM Dio 50cc (those tiny ones) from a foreigner for NT6000. I rode that little thing like there was no tomorrow. I worked far out in Taishan (past Hsimen, past Sanchong, past Hsinchuang…then Taishan,just before Taoyuen.
and I rode that little thing there and back from Kuting ( an hour there, an hour back) for 2 years. Then I changed jobs, but still had the little bugger till I moved up here in Hsintien and it smoked too much coming up the mountain. I sold it to my friend for a thousand, she spent NT4000 on getting it all done, and she is zipping around with it now. It must be 15 years old!
[quote=“sulavaca”]
These two bikes I’ve just mentioned though do reflect how much Honda technology is still used by Kymco and SYM[/quote]Absolutely. No point in re-inventing the wheel so a lot of Japanese technology ends up used on SYMs and Kymcos. From what I have witnessed, the Taiwanese parts seem to use cheaper materials. Rubbers and plastics dry faster, paint is cheaper and painted metal components rust faster. It also seems that some parts use a lower grade metal which wears out faster, notably transmission parts and suspension parts. Put simply, there is no way that they can produce the same quality for less than half the price in many instances. The parts are cheaper because the manufacturers overhead is less than that of the more expensive Japanese manufacturers. And the only way that the local manufacturers can lower their overhead is by using cheaper materials (paint, rubber, plastic, metal) and cutting down on the machine shop operating costs. The result is a product that “appears” just as good but that is sold for a lot less. This translates into what many consider to be a better value for the money. Maybe it is, and maybe you are right. You do have some excellent points, too. I guess I’m just hesitant to hop on that boat.
This said, I think rk and Tainan Cowboy have it right. The key to getting your money’s worth in the long run is to properly maintain a scooter regardless what brand it is. Regular TLC does wonders for these little machines.
I agree with a lot of what you say, but this statement you made is totally wrong in my opinion…no offense. The Taiwanese love to show off, and buy outrageously too expensive cars and motorcycles for their needs. Hence why you see lots of “big bikes” recently, which for the Taiwan market isn’t a good investment at all. [/quote]
This is true, they do like to show off, but luxury items are not purchased by the majority of Taiwanese and specifically in the case of sports/heavy bikes are not generally used from day to day. If we look at luxury items though in the form of cars and bikes what do we find a lot of the time? Is it not so that sports bikes tend to be more often of Japanese build [The more reliable type]? And does the luxury brand Lexus recently outsell its main rivals Merc and BMW? Lexus doesn’t even out perform its rivals on a track, so they must be doing something right.
[quote=“marboulette”]Sulavaca, you are the first person I hear praising scooters that are made in Taiwan over Japanese scooters. And so it goes.
marboulette[/quote]
My friend Jeremy of Bikefarm made his living from owning and maintaining scooters that he rented out to foreigners, many of whom are young and crazy. Dozens and dozens of them at any one time. His stable was almost exclusively Kymco and Sym. Reliability, price and maintenance costs put Yamaha pretty much out of the picture for him.
People who feel Kymco and Sym are unreliable, etc., are IMO living in the past and no longer in touch with what these companies are doing.
As for parts reliability, I don’t know about scooters, but my last bike was a Yamaha Dragfire, which I rode for over 10 years. It had many replacement parts, both Japanese and local and the difference between was… zilch. Except for price. Yamaha chain: NT$5,000. Lasted: 2 years. Local chain: NT$1,500. Lasted: 2 years. The list goes on.
That said, it was a lovely bike in terms of reliability and quality, but then, it cost nearly double what its closest Kymco would have cost new.
yamaha make great motorbikes, especially the bigger ones. it is hard to find a better bike than an R1, for example, or the old FJ1200 sports tourer, and that’s high praise coming from a Ducati nut such as myself.
but in comparison, their scooters suck. period. the parts may be high quality(?) but the design and the engineering in them is nowhere near as good as that in their motorbikes.
Kinetic SYM Flyte: The Scooter of the Year 2008
[/quote]The link to the award for SYM is in India, man. 
The scooter in question is basically a replica of a model similar to the Jockey 125 that came out in Taiwan 