Sandskirt wrote: [quote]My friend Jeremy of Bikefarm made his living from owning and maintaining scooters that he rented out to foreigners, many of whom are young and crazy. Dozens and dozens of them at any one time. His stable was almost exclusively Kymco and Sym. [/quote]
Sorry to go off-topic chaps but, Sandy, why are you talking about Bike Farm in the past tense? I see his website http://www.bikefarm.net is still up.
Sorry to go off-topic chaps but, Sandy, why are you talking about Bike Farm in the past tense? I see his website http://www.bikefarm.net is still up.[/quote]
Jeremy’s had a full gender reassignation and is now a starring member of the Red Theatre ladyboys Extravaganza. He’s not doing the bikes any more.
[quote=“urodacus”]yamaha make great motorbikes, especially the bigger ones. it is hard to find a better bike than an R1, for example, or the old FJ1200 sports tourer, and that’s high praise coming from a Ducati nut such as myself.
but in comparison, their scooters suck. period. the parts may be high quality(?) but the design and the engineering in them is nowhere near as good as that in their motorbikes.[/quote]Do you mean Yamaha Taiwan scooters? Sure, I don’t reckon they’re that much different from Kymco/Sym//PGO ones. But surely the import scooters such as the V-Max are pretty good quality?
Sandman’s Dragfire was a Japanese import anyway, if I remember correctly.
perhaps that is so. the older Taiwan made ones are where my (limited) experience lies.
[quote]
People who feel Kymco and Sym are unreliable, etc., are IMO living in the past and no longer in touch with what these companies are doing.[/quote]I agree they are better than they used to be, but they are still a few steps behind the Japanese, I’d say. Maybe these few steps are not worth the price difference, though. Tough call.
T.
[quote=“urodacus”]…their scooters suck. period. the parts may be high quality(?) but the design and the engineering in them is nowhere near as good as that in their motorbikes.[/quote]Are you kidding? The Cygnus is currently the best 125cc out there, and the BWS is the only scooter designed to go off road available for someone in the market for a new scooter. Both these scooters are really well made.
sulavaca mentioned that he owns a Movie by SYM. I just recently replaced the rear shock on one of these for a friend and let me tell you that was a headache. I had to take everything apart to reach the shock; seat, seat compartment, plastic on both sides (the plastic sides on these scooters is one piece for both sides. :s You can not take only one side off.) , air filter, anti-pollution something, rear rack, etc. I can replace the top end of the engine on a Yamaha in about half the time without having to take the bike apart nearly as much. Not to mention that it’s really difficult to remove the plastic without breaking the stupidly engineered plastic anchors. Yamaha’s cosmetic parts are almost all screwed in place as opposed to Kymcos and SYMs which uses half the amount of screws and plastic clips/anchors instead. After a few years the plastic ages, it dries, and it becomes very brittle. It’s retarded, and that’s how all the Taiwanese scooters are put together. I’ll admit that the newer models are improved, but only if you go with the top models such as the Xpro and the Fighter. The front end of these scooters is just as bad as the older models, though. Something like 2 screws and about two dozens plastic anchors and clips. It’s really poor engineering and a real pain to work with.
[quote=“sandman”]People who feel Kymco and Sym are unreliable, etc., are IMO living in the past and no longer in touch with what these companies are doing.[/quote]Well, that’s one way to look at it. How many scooters have you worked on lately? Take it from someone who works on these scooters but who is not in it for the money like Jeremy. Because that’s what it comes down to, and that has been the larger part of the arguments for SYM and Kymcos in this debate; value for the bucks.
[quote=“sandman”]That said, it was a lovely bike in terms of reliability and quality, but then, it cost nearly double what its closest Kymco would have cost new.[/quote]And why do you think that is? Sure you pay for the name, and you pay for the “import” but not THAT much.
Some people want a good value for their buck, and the local scooters offer just that. You get a scooter that will run with no or little problems for a few years at a much cheaper price. But if you add in the depreciation value, you realize that you’ve only saved money for a short term. Look on the road and see for yourself. How many old beat up local scooters vs old beat up Japanese scooters do you see? There are probably more of these ancient Yamaha Fuzzy still on the road than all of the Kymcos and SYMs of that age put together.
When is the last time any of you guys visited a scooter scrap yard here? You hardly see any imports there. It’s almost all local scooters. The amount of Japanese scooters vs local scooters is totally disproportionate to what you see on the road. There are so many local scooters that still look pretty decent, too! But they are cheap, and often times people will not bother rebuilding the engine when the time comes so they scrap them. There’s your investment in the garbage right there…
Check out this scooter:
It’s 9 years old. 90k on the clock and it has never had the bottom end redone yet. Runs like a charm. Original transmission and front suspension. Admittedly, a lot of new parts, but not a big amount if you consider that the bike has done the job for 9 years. Still cheaper than buying 2 Kymcos… A lot cheaper.
I guess now you can see why I’m so biased. I enjoyed the conversation. Now pack it up and go home. Let me win. 
marboulette
[quote=“marboulette”]There are probably more of these ancient Yamaha Fuzzy still on the road than all of the Kymcos and SYMs of that age put together.
[/quote]
I’ve got one of those Yamaha Fuzzy’s - 12 years old, and still running well. Only had 1 problem with it - the voltage regulator went bad. It was easily replaced at only NT$300 or so. I’ve never found their prices for regular maintainence items to be any more/less expensive SYM so far.
As for SYM quality from the factory, I’m not too impressed. In the first month of owning my Fighter, it was in the shop for at least 5 different issues:
Can’t let you win. I just sold my Dragfire and bought a Taiwanese bike, so I HAVE to be convinced that local is as good as imported or I’m fucked, 'aint I?
Off road! Go on say it again!Say it again! :roflmao: I’m sorry, I couldn’t hold it in.
[url=http://tw.youtube.com/watch?v=IP-KbQqDp6w]SCOOTER BWS…OFF ROAD
My favorite bit is at 5:18. “Oh, no mud! It doesn’t do mud!” “Only, slightly bumpy hard packed dirt!”
Sorry. I did used to ride a BWS and it was a lot of fun, in the days when I wasn’t so afraid for my life. It goes well in a straight line and has a great feeling of acceleration, but cornering? My word that was scary! And where are you supposed to put your feet? I never did figure that out.[/url]
maybe the yamahas are so much heavier because their parts are solid. that makes them underpowered, relatively.
maybe they are reliable enough, but they cost a lot more: they are overpriced against their slightly inferior Taiwanese counterparts.
maybe their build quality is a little better, but not across the whiole range. like i said, yamaha makes great bikes, but their scooters (at the lower end in particular) are, by comparison, not as well made.
after all is said and done,remember that it’s a damn scooter: a fairly disposable piece of equipment, that’s destined to be crushed, scratched, dropped, pushed over, flooded, rained on, sunburnt, and have cigarette butts burnt into the seat and rubbish shoved into the basket by countless passers-by.
it will suck going up big hills, because that’s what happens with any 12 HP vehicle.
it will struggle to get up to 100 km, but then why do you want to ride that fast? this is taiwan, don’t forget, and people out there are trying to kill you.
it will not slow down or corner well, despite any of the ads you see for the latest SYM where the guy gets his knees down at the racetrack.
go and buy a yamaha then. just remember to change the oil, keep the tyres pumped up, grease the bearings, etc, and you’ll have a beast that will keep going for longer than average.
Good post, urodacus. All true. You do pay for the name when you buy a Yamaha, but that’s how it always is when you choose to buy quality. Yamaha has a solid reputation and it doesn’t come free, unfortunately.
Off road! Go on say it again!Say it again! :roflmao: I’m sorry, I couldn’t hold it in.[/quote]OK, OK, it’s only good for “light” off road use. Nothing too steep going uphill and no mud, indeed. A little mud is OK. I’ve been up the hills and the valleys on dirt roads all around southern Taiwan with my BWS and it’s a whole lot of fun. You need the mud tires to feel secure on dirt roads and trails.
[quote=“sulavaca”]My favorite bit is at 5:18. “Oh, no mud! It doesn’t do mud!” “Only, slightly bumpy hard packed dirt!”[/quote] I got stuck in the sand with mine on the beach once, too. Had to push and even then the little guy got really, really hot. Within reason given the size of the engine, it does have more versatility than regular scooters, and like I said it is fun.
[quote=“sulavaca”]Sorry. I did used to ride a BWS and it was a lot of fun, in the days when I wasn’t so afraid for my life. It goes well in a straight line and has a great feeling of acceleration, but cornering? My word that was scary! And where are you supposed to put your feet? I never did figure that out.[/quote]I had my seat modified and it is about 5 inches thicker. You can tell if you look at the above picture. I did that to add leg room. True about the cornering, too. Better with road tires, but still not as good as some scooters, including many local ones. The tires are too fat and the bike sits too high for good cornering ability. I’m afraid your review is accurate in pointing out the flaws.
[quote=“sandman”]Can’t let you win. I just sold my Dragfire and bought a Taiwanese bike, so I have to be convinced that local is as good as imported or I’m fucked, 'aint I?[/quote]Naah. The CPI is a whole other ball game, IMO. It stands out in terms of design, and let’s not forget that it introduces something that no one else offers at the moment. The price is right, too. Time will tell how well they hold up, but they seem pretty sturdy to me. If you maintain it well and give it a bit of TLC, I suspect that this bike will do you good for many years to come. Besides, it’s a pretty cool ride.
[quote=“peanut”] I’ve never found their prices for regular maintainence items to be any more/less expensive SYM so far. [/quote]That’s probably because you never requested imported parts. Locals never do and mechanics always order local after market parts without giving you the choice. Sorry you had so many problems with the Fighter. You should have bought a Cygnus instead. 
marboulette