the prc has been a sovereign and independent country since 1949. not only that, it has been the LARGEST country in the world. the un did not recognize it as a sovereign nation and china’s attempt to enter the un were consistently blocked until the 70’s.
in direct violation of the un charter, the us and its western allies were able to keep china out for many many years. today, in another violation of the un charter, china is able to pressure countries to keep taiwan out.
No, they didn’t keep China out. China was in all the time. It was represented by the ROC from 1945 to 1971, and by the PRC thereafter.
(Afterthought added the next day) - Between its foundation in 1949 and 1971, the PRC was denied the right to represent China at the UN.
and since the roc had no control over mainland china at the time, it was a joke. just another example of the un breaking it’s own charter. they block the ruling government of mainland china from entering the un and insist that the government of taiwan represented it.
tell me juba, do you believe that mainland china was under the rule of the roc from 1949-1971? was the roc the prevailing power in mainland china during that time?
There are more conditions to be fullfilled than the above (all of which Taiwan meets though) but besides personal opinions I haven’t found any source that claims or proves that Taiwan is actually an independent country, usually it’s listed separately (with some disclaimer) or carries the status quo, and Taiwan has not declared itself independent (yet).
wordiq.com/definition/Politi … _of_Taiwan
state.gov/s/inr/rls/4250.htm
There are more conditions to be fullfilled than the above (all of which Taiwan meets though) but besides personal opinions I haven’t found any source that claims or proves that Taiwan is actually an independent country, usually it’s listed separately (with some disclaimer) or carries the status quo, and Taiwan has not declared itself independent (yet).
wordiq.com/definition/Politi … _of_Taiwan
state.gov/s/inr/rls/4250.htm[/quote]
In fact Taiwan has all conditions for a country called ROC, but the main thing is the territory. So long as the ROC claims to represent Taiwan,mainland,Hong Kong,Tibet and the rest…other countries impossibly con recognize Taiwan as an own country.
But in fact Taiwan is self ruling. So have to threat it separated to China…if as a country or territory. the effective control has Taiwan itself.
By the way…who said that Japan has given up its sovereignty over Taiwan? There is no official document saying that Taiwan is a part of China.
Even in the ROC Constitution I cannot find Taiwan.
Um, Japan did, in the Treaty of San Francisco.
Chapter 2, Article 2 (b):
Formosa being the English name of the island now known by it’s Chinese name, Taiwan, arguing the Japanese didn’t give up sovereignty over Taiwan because they called it by its English name is like saying anything that any mention to New Zealand is void because it doesn’t call it Aotearoa - that being the indigenous Maori name for New Zealand.
Um, Japan did, in the Treaty of San Francisco.[/quote]
They just accepted that Manschuko is given back to China. They simply didn’t object occupying of Taiwan, but never signed a contract about Taiwan.
Chapter 2, Article 2 (b):
Ah you mean this little passage…who said that Japan gave Taiwan back to China? Taiwan was simply occupied, after the UN charter it is illegal to take over land of other countries.
Neither you nor I said anything about China. You said, and I quote, “By the way…who said that Japan has given up its sovereignty over Taiwan?” You did not say “By the way…who said that Japan has given up its sovereignty over Taiwan and returned it to China?”.
And where in the hell did you get Manchukuo/Manchuria out of my post?
[quote=“Tetsuo”]Neither you nor I said anything about China. You said, and I quote, “By the way…who said that Japan has given up its sovereignty over Taiwan?” You did not say “By the way…who said that Japan has given up its sovereignty over Taiwan and returned it to China?”.
And where in the hell did you get Manchukuo/Manchuria out of my post?[/quote]
Ok,ok clam down! Don’t get angry so easy! I just wanted to show up that general to easy accpet things how they are…, but if they are right so or not nobody is questioning.
Be cool…this is a forum for foreigners…I think less than 0,01% of the members are Taiwanese.
I couldn’t find many people who are concerned about Taiwan.
The Japanese have never claimed any sovereignty over Taiwan since the coming into effect of the San Francisco Peace Treaty in 1952.
Also, it is interesting to note that among the older Japanese people, i.e. specifically among those with knowledge of the events of the close of WWII and the post-WWII treaty, it is commonly recognized that “Taiwan was not given to the ROC.”
While you may want to regard this as “ancedotal evidence”, it is quite interesting nevertheless. The provisions of the San Francisco Peace Treaty and the Sino-Japanese Peace Treaty also clearly show that Taiwan was not given to the ROC.
This can also be easily deduced with a little logic … because if Taiwan had been given to the ROC, then today the ROC would be recognized as a sovereign nation. In fact, it isn’t recognized as such …
And here all this time I thought pressure from China had something to do with it. I must have judged Beijing a bit too harshly.
[quote=“Hartzell”]The Japanese have never claimed any sovereignty over Taiwan since the coming into effect of the San Francisco Peace Treaty in 1952.
Also, it is interesting to note that among the older Japanese people, i.e. specifically among those with knowledge of the events of the close of WWII and the post-WWII treaty, it is commonly recognized that “Taiwan was not given to the ROC.”
While you may want to regard this as “ancedotal evidence”, it is quite interesting nevertheless. The provisions of the San Francisco Peace Treaty and the Sino-Japanese Peace Treaty also clearly show that Taiwan was not given to the ROC.
This can also be easily deduced with a little logic … because if Taiwan had been given to the ROC, then today the ROC would be recognized as a sovereign nation. In fact, it isn’t recognized as such …[/quote]
Exactly! And now it is up to the currenct government in Taipei to correct this little historical fact.
If they would take advantage that Taiwan’s status Nation in the law never was decleared and convincing UN members that the people of Taiwan have a free elected government, the door to international organisations opens easier.
From 1911 to 1945 the ROC was a souvereign nation, after it was kept alive with finiancial and military injections from the Western world.
The consul from the US in Taipei in 1945 pleased Washington D.C. to respect the rights of the Taiwanese people who were suddenly occupied by KMT forces. We know what happened…the decisions were given to the military and general MacArthur didn’t feel sorry at all for the “Japanese” soldiers who had to fight against US forces.
If that is a logical deduction then the logic of it eludes me.
[quote=“Hartzell”]The Japanese have never claimed any sovereignty over Taiwan since the coming into effect of the San Francisco Peace Treaty in 1952.
Also, it is interesting to note that among the older Japanese people, i.e. specifically among those with knowledge of the events of the close of WWII and the post-WWII treaty, it is commonly recognized that “Taiwan was not given to the ROC.”
While you may want to regard this as “ancedotal evidence”, it is quite interesting nevertheless. The provisions of the San Francisco Peace Treaty and the Sino-Japanese Peace Treaty also clearly show that Taiwan was not given to the ROC.
This can also be easily deduced with a little logic … because if Taiwan had been given to the ROC, then today the ROC would be recognized as a sovereign nation. In fact, it isn’t recognized as such …[/quote]
I’m sorry but I just have to interrupt here, but that is absolutely the most preposterous thing I’ve ever heard so far.
What you cited wasn’t anecdotal evidence, you just simply made it up. What older generation Japanese with specific knowledge of the closing events of WW2 are you referring to? The only people who would fit that description would be some Showa era politicians and diplomats and possibly some high ranking military officers. All of whom are by now dead. Commonly recognized by ghosts perhaps?
All of this obfuscation is simply pathetic and the dramatic leeps in logic accepted by Taidu advocates would be amusing if they were not dangerous.
Simply put, Taiwan did in fact revert to the custody of the Republic of China following world war 2. There is no legal document that states otherwise. The only source of dispute is in the wording of the San Francisco peace treaty which only stated that Japan renounces all claims to Taiwan et al. It is a shell game of semantics to conclude that this means that Taiwan is independent. The Cairo declaration, the Potsdam declaration, The Japanese instrument of surrender and the Taipei treaty all state specifically that Taiwan is returned to China.
The Taipei Treaty does not in any way, shape, or form say that Taiwan is returned to China. Why don’t you read it again? See taiwandocuments.org/taipei01.htm
Article 10.
For the purposes of the present Treaty, nationals of the Republic of China shall be deemed to include all the inhabitants and former inhabitants of Taiwan (Formosa) and Penghu (the Pescadores) and their descendents who are of the Chinese nationality in accordance with the laws and regulations which have been or may hereafter be enforced by the Republic of China in Taiwan (Formosa) and Penghu (the Pescadores); and juridical persons of the Republic of China shall be deemed to include all those registered under the laws and regulations which have been or may hereafter be enforced by the Republic of China in Taiwan (Formosa) and Penghu (the Pescadores).
Are you blind? The treaty specifically states that the people living on Taiwan are RoC nationals.
cmdjing wrote:
Formosa was clearly given to Japan by the Treaty of Shimonoseki. No clearly worded treaty since then has ever transferred sovereignty to either the ROC or PRC. Without that treaty, neither gov`t legally holds the sovereignty of Taiwan.
[quote=“cmdjing”]Article 10.
For the purposes of the present Treaty, nationals of the Republic of China shall be deemed to include all the inhabitants and former inhabitants of Taiwan (Formosa) and Penghu (the Pescadores) and their descendents who are of the Chinese nationality in accordance with the laws and regulations which have been or may hereafter be enforced by the Republic of China in Taiwan (Formosa) and Penghu (the Pescadores); and juridical persons of the Republic of China shall be deemed to include all those registered under the laws and regulations which have been or may hereafter be enforced by the Republic of China in Taiwan (Formosa) and Penghu (the Pescadores).
Are you blind? The treaty specifically states that the people living on Taiwan are RoC nationals.[/quote]
are you dumb? I know, rhetorical question. It states that the chinese national inhabitants of Taiwan and Penghu are ROC nationals. It does not state that the territory is owned by ROC or given to ROC. The treaty can say that all chinese national people living in the US are ROC nationals it would still not change the fact that the US territory is owned by the US.
The treaty states it recognizes the fact Japan gives up it’s right, title, and claims to Taiwan, Penghu, Spratley Islands, and the Paracel Islands in the SFPT. It does not say anywhere in there that Taiwan, Penghu, Spratley Islands, and the Paracel Islands is given to ROC or PRC.
Article 2
It is recognised that under Article 2 of the Treaty of Peace which Japan signed at the city of San Francisco on 8 September 1951 (hereinafter referred to as the San Francisco Treaty), Japan has renounced all right, title, and claim to Taiwan (Formosa) and Penghu (the Pescadores) as well as the Spratley Islands and the Paracel Islands.
Mark
Further on Article 10 of the Sino-Japanese Peace Treaty, which came into effect on August 5, 1952 ----
The ROC Nationality Law was originally promulgated in 1929. It was later revised in the year 2000.
However, no mention was made of the circumstances of the “nationality” of the inhabitants of Formosa and the Pescadores. Question: When was the ROC Nationality Law revised to give these people ROC Nationality … ?
I can find no record of it.
In 1929, the native inhabitants of Formosa and the Pescadores were Japanese nationals. Japan was sovereign over Taiwan until April 28, 1952.
[quote=“iris”][quote]
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 18:07:09 +0800 (CST)
Subject: Support Taiwan and win cash!
From: “Taiwan’s Participation in the U.N.” th@mail.gio.gov.tw
Dear Friend of Taiwan,
Thank you for your continuing interest in Taiwan!
The Information Division of the Taipei Economic and Cultural Office in New York is pleased to announce a contest to promote awareness of Taiwan’s 12th-annual bid for UN representation. Quiz questions will be posted to our website each Monday beginning August 30, 2004, and will change weekly for 5 weeks.
There will be 12 winners each week! 3 of them will receive US $100 in cash, and the rest will receive “The Wonders of Taiwan,” an interactive DVD, or foldable backpacks or shopping bags sponsored by Taiwan’s Tourism Bureau.
For more information about Taiwan’s bid for UN representation, and to participate in the quiz, please go to www.Taipei.org and follow the simple instructions.
Everyone is welcome to participate, so tell your friends and family! We look forward to hearing from you soon.
Best Regards,
www.Taipei.org
[/quote]
Happy quizzing
(I’m just dying to win one of those DVDs or a shopping bag sponsored by Taiwan’s Tourism Bureau 
)
Iris[/quote]
I’m a winner!!! They will be sending my prize to my mom in San Diego, who I’m sure will really appreciate the Taiwanese souvenirs.