Yeah. I’ve noticed those things as well. Last year I was with my girlfriends friend having coffee. He found out that my father was German and he asked me if I knew where to get Nazi paraphernalia. He wanted a motorcycle helmet with a point on top like Nazi soldiers used to wear. And he also told me he was thinking about getting a swastika tattoo.
I was horrified and I tore into him. I told him how offensive it was and that he shouldn’t do it. I explained to him what Hitler did and why westerners didn’t like him. This guy was incredible. He said to me that he didn’t care what anyone else thought about it, that he thought Hitler was cool and still wanted the tattoo. What an assclown.
[quote=“Vannyel”]So how exactly is someone putting a decal on a helmet or scooter ‘glorifying’ anything. Is it anything like all those Americans with their flags proudly displayed ‘glorifying’ slavery, discrimination, race riots, invading less powerful countries on the feeble misguided excuse of a pre-emptive move (didn’t the Nazis do this too), etc.
[/quote]
So by your logic every country in the world that isn’t named Luxembourg shouldn’t fly their flag because all countries have horrible crimes in their past. The Union Jack stands for colonialism and the Taiwan flag stands for murdering Taiwanese on 2/28. Sorry, but that argument doesn’t work. The U.S. flag stands for a country with a long history, filled with many great crimes and much great good. It can be used by leftists or rightists or colonialists or anti-colonialists equally - because it stands for a nation, not an ideology. The Nazi flag on the other hand does not stand for Germany. The Nazi symbol stands for a specific ideological movement that ruled for about a dozen years and that was pure evil. Unlike the American flag or most any other nation’s flag, which stand for the people of a country, the Nazi flag stands for an ideology with certain specific ideals and goals that most people find abhorrent. The Confederate battle flag is offensive for similar reasons.
What desensitizing to violence and degradation - is someone showing these people pro-Nazi movies when they go to buy these stickers/helmets, etc? Are these special animated swastikas?
The majority of people this seems to bother is oversensitive foreigners who are only too willing to ‘educate’ the poor ignorant ‘natives’ and attempt to convince them that a meaningless symbol (for most Taiwanese) is in fact a work of pure evil (is that in the Christian sense???) and to display this symbol is evil. Any negative impact on the locals is coming from Westerners trying to impose their values/beliefs on others - hey, isn’t that funny, kinda like the early missionaries to the Americas who would force the natives to convert (or die). You are right pjdrib…history does repeat. Go with God my brother 
The swastika (because of Nazism) is not a meaningless symbol. The nature of a symbol is to have meaning - surely the character system of Chinese is this concept refined!. Misuse (intentional or otherwise) doesn’t change a symbol for those who know its meaning.
I’m illiterate when it comes to Chinese but I don’t appropriate the characters that mean “Greater Asian Co-prosperity Sphere: I’m lovin’ it” and wear them on my hat in Nanjing. I don’t appropriate symbols from other cultures and wear them when I don’t know what they signify.(Isn’t that the whole point here?) Anyone who does this is simply ignorant, or worse insults or hurts others.
Furthermore Fascism isn’t dead; its alive and flourishing in many western and eastern countries countries (Japan). It preys on the political ignorance of the downtrodden and ignorant as it peddles its racist conspiracy twaddle. To plead that their is no threat from ultra-right wing nationalism in any society is at best politicaly naive.
A as westerner do I have a tiny, tiny, tiny right to rave on this point and consequently shut my gob when it comes to the inner workings of the DPP or the nature of “Chi” or why does Hagen Dazz cost sooooooo much at 7-11?
Taken today, next to Starbucks in Hsimending:
At the risk of repeating myself:
“The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. Instead of altering their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views… which can be very uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that needs altering.”
The Doctor
For all your arguments concerning these symbols in Taiwan, is this the reason these same symbols are not illegal in the U.S.? Or better yet, why do you think the rebel flag is still allowed to be displayed in the U.S.? Are Taiwanese more ‘downtrodden and ignorant’ than Americans? Do they need our special protection? 
And what exactly is wrong with pride in one’s nation?
fordham.edu/halsall/mod/muss … scism.html
As for rights of a westerner in Taiwan, I think others have said it best - as a foreigner, you have no guaranteed rights in Taiwan…just ask Boomer and Hartzell. But this only applies to the government.
[quote]At the risk of repeating myself:
“The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. Instead of altering their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views… which can be very uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that needs altering.”
The Doctor[/quote]
What does this have to do with the topic?
edited to add this footnote…[quote]To plead that their is no threat from ultra-right wing nationalism in any society is at best politicaly naive.[/quote]
Who do you think is in charge of America? 
And speaking of the greatest nation (or at least the most powerful) in the world…I ask again…what exactly is wrong with pride in one’s nation? It has fueled the United States’ rise to world domination and made the world a much better place … oops, well at least for Americans. (You might ask what this has to do with Hitler, etc…and I would say if Taiwan had more national pride, a common cause, they too could adopt a funny looking flag, cute mustaches, and rise to world domination… then Boomer, et al. would really have something to complain about)
I think to the Chinese it’s probably just a bunch of Europeans killing each other. I mean what do they really care about Jews, or Poles, or whoever. The Chinese come from a history of barbaric repression and regular massacres anyway, if we’re going to have a murderous regime competition, I think the Chinese would have to be at the top. The Japanese did their best to kill lots of Chinese people and other Asians, but they’re rank amatuers compared to the Chinese (and Mongols, let’s not forget the one-man murdering machine Ghengis Khan). So I guess there’s no particular shock value about some short mustachioed guy from Austria gassing a pile of people he didn’t like the look of. His use of gas is probably regarded as an excellent efficiency to be admired.
I saw someone wearing a helmet with the swastika (The Nazi one) on it one time and I asked my girlfriend if she could explain to the man wearing it (My Chinese isn’t good enough) what it meant to foreigners and that it is upsetting to some. The man didn’t say much…just basically said “I see” , but I think he really didn’t know. Vannyel said that it was a case of oversensitive foreigners. I understand how it could appear that way to outsiders, but some of our parents and grandparents suffered at the hands of that brutal dictatorship that bears that symbol. I think it is not very compassionate or sensitive of Vannyel to be so dismissive of other people
[quote=“rob123”] I think it is not very compassionate or sensitive of Vannyel to be so dismissive of other people
There Vannyel goes dismissing other peoples feelings again. I would think that a compassionate person upon finding out that this symbol is upsetting to someone woudn’t want this person to unecessarily suffer.
So Hitler tries to exterminate an entire race of people and the next generation of people are supposed to have no feelings about this? My heart goes out to the people who sufferered at the hands of the people who wielded this symbol and to accept it’s use is to turn a blind eye to their suffering.
And on a more selfish note I don’t want to be reminded about these atrocities each time I see it. I am not pulling people off their bike or out of their shop and beating the piss out of them. I am simply explaining to people what this symbol represents so that they know. I don’t see any harm in this.
I’m not saying it should be banned, cause that would be censorship. I’m not pushing my western ideas on anyone i’m just pointing out the harm it may cause to others so the said person knows this.
[quote=“rob123”][quote]There Vannyel goes dismissing other peoples feelings again. I would think that a compassionate person upon finding out that this symbol is upsetting to someone woudn’t want this person to unecessarily suffer. My heart goes out to the people who sufferered at the hands of the people who wielded this symbol and to accept it’s use is to turn a blind eye to their suffering.
And on a more selfish note I don’t want to be reminded about these atrocities each time I see it.
I’m not pushing my western ideas on anyone I’m just pointing out the harm it may cause to others so the said person knows this.[/quote][/quote]
So I guess it’s safe to assume that you were personally in Europe during Hitler’s reign otherwise how can you personally be reminded of any atrocities? For you and most people, the reminder is a movie or stories. You (and I) have no concept what it could be like so there is no way you could be unnecessarily suffering every time you see one of these symbols. It’s not logical.
Well…actually my Grandfather was in the German army. My father was born there and had many stories of the terrible things the Nazi’s did. My fathers side of the family fled Germany after the war because after what the Nazi’s did the Americans and others bombed Germany back to the stone age. And yes things that I see on T.V. affect me as well. I also grew up with a guy who’s Grandmother was killed in a concentration camp. The logic lies in that I sympathize with people, including my own father and Grandfather and the family of my best friend. Just because a person doesn’t have first hand knowledge or suffering doesn’t mean that they have no feelings for loved ones who did. I hope that is sufficient reason to have these feelings. Not that I need to justify my feeling to you anyways. I just thought you should know things aren’t that black and white.
[quote=“Vannyel”][quote]At the risk of repeating myself:
“The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. Instead of altering their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views… which can be very uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that needs altering.”
The Doctor[/quote]
What does this have to do with the topic? 
[/quote]
What does this have to do with this topic?
Because there are some people here who, I believe, are intelligent enough to simply alter their views when presented with the facts.
There are others here, who need to stop trying to alter the facts.
So what are the facts?
[b]Simply put, just because a Buddhist or Hindu swastika on a temple or vegetarian restaurant is “harmless”…
that doesn’t mean that a Nazi swastika on a flag or a restaurant or a motorcycle helmet is harmless.[/b]
Symbols are not just neutral pictures. They represent something and participate in the very thing they are representing. If they did not, they would not be symbols, they would be meaningless doodles.
So let’s be very clear about this: The symbols you see on temples and veggie restaurants areswastikas;
but they are not Nazi symbols.
We outsiders (and let’s face it, we are now and will always be outsiders) need to understand, I think, that these “Buddhist swastikas” may be upsetting or unnerving to our Western minds and sensibilities; but they are neither evil nor wrong because they do not represent any evil or wrong.
Displaying them is no different than Christians or members of formerly Christian societies displaying a cross or a neopagan Norseman wearing a Thor’s Hammer.
But let’s also be clear about this: The symbols you see on flags, T-shirts, motorcycle helmets, heater ads and sicko restaurants in Hsimenting are swastikas and they are Nazi emblems.
As such, they are evil because they represent the evil they participated in.
And that is something, I think, that local people must be made to understand.
Of course, it could be that local people do understand and don’t care because:
a) it doesn’t affect them b) they think the swastikas are cool.
In which case, it’s time to open up that “Rape of Nanking” restaurant on Taipei’s ZhongXiao East Road (say, across from the Sogo), or perhaps in the Taipei 101 Mall.
At least that way nobody could say, “You don’t understand Chinese people” or “You don’t understand Chinese culture.”
We would be demonstrating, very clearly I think, that we do understand the Chinese; but that we think the Rising Sun is really cool.
Of course, the plan could backfire, because not everyone in Taiwan considers the Japanese the bad guys in WWII.
Heck, some preferred Japanese rule to KMT rule.
In which case, we would be left with the problem of a very successful restaurant.
(NB I tried to use the appropriate Wade-Giles romanization for the name of that Chinese city infamously raped by the Japanese army, but Big Brother keeps changing it to Hanyu Pinyin)
And, for those of you who just joined our program, I provide this information from page 2 of this discussion…
There seems to be a lot of confusion about what is and what isn’t a swastika. So…
Just to keep things straight:
The so-called Buddhist symbols on temples and restaurants in Taiwan are not Nazi symbols, but they are swastikas.
Actually, swastikas were Hindu symbols long before they were Buddhist symbols.
But whether Buddhist or Hindu, there are two main types of swastikas:
The first is the counter-clockwise, or destroverse, one (the most common one on Buddhist establishments in Taiwan);
the second is the clock-wise, or sinistroverse, one (the one co-opted and modified by the Nazis.)
In fact, both types of swastikas were commonly used as religious symbols for thousands of years. Christians, for example, called the swastika “the cross in disguise” or even “Brigit’s cross” – before the Nazis co-opted the motif and literally “turned” it into a symbol of evil.
So, Why would a temple have a swastika?
A) because the swastika has always been a Buddhist symbol B) because, for Taiwan Buddhists, it doesn’t have the same negative associations that it has for we foreigners
Still, that doesn’t explain why the Taiwan people would continue to defend their use of the symbol of Nazi evil for commerical or political purposes, or for the purpose of just looking cool.
Then again, I don’t understand why pizza ads have to feature a mafioso-looking guy in some farcical satire of Holy Communion saying (in a really bad Italian accent) "This isa my body…
End transmission
Addendum:
For more on the swastika and the Nazis, check here:
http://www.intelinet.org/swastika/swasti16.htm
or you can check out the whole web site here:
[quote=“Vannyel”][quote=“rob123”] I think it is not very compassionate or sensitive of Vannyel to be so dismissive of other people
[quote=“mod lang”]
So I guess it’s alright I dress up in white sheets and a hood and walk around some black neighborhood, huh?[/quote] 
[quote=“mod lang”][quote=“Vannyel”][quote=“rob123”] I think it is not very compassionate or sensitive of Vannyel to be so dismissive of other people
[quote=“Vannyel”]
Steve Zodiac [quote]As such, they are evil because they represent the evil they participated in.
And that is something, I think, that local people must be made to understand. [/quote]
“Made to understand” – do you prefer to beat your viewpoint into them?
Your interpretation of the facts isn’t mine, that doesn’t mean I am attempting to alter anything. I am simply presenting the other side.
Since you are on a crusade yourself, I guess I will just end my participation in this discussion. [/quote]
Dear Vanyell
Why is it that if I make a post arguing a position and presenting some facts, that I am “beating my viewpoint into them” and “on a crusade”?
But when you make a post
Dear Steve,
Didn’t you say…[quote]
As such, they are evil because they represent the evil they participated in.
And that is something, I think, that local people must be made to understand.[/quote]
This is why I accused you of attempting to beat your viewpoint into them and being on a crusade. Perhaps I misinterpreted ‘made to understand.’
If I was wrong I apologize. Contrary to how I come across on forumosa.com, I don’t see everything as black and white.
Religion, politics and many other topics are way too personal and volatile to have a logical debate. I don’t see the threat or danger in a relatively small number of Taiwanese ‘admiring’ a swastika or a couple of restaurants with controversial (to foreigners) themes. [color=red]One important reason is because there is no fanatical ideological motivation behind them. [/color] And as I have said, I, personally, don’t believe in the anthropomorphism of Nazi symbols.
[quote] Nor do I wish to discuss the relative merits of Christian symbols and the history of Christianity
[quote=“Vannyel”]I did a very short Internet search (with google of course) and, although it is hardly of academic quality, I found the following information to be interesting:
[quote]
Many American books, television documentaries, and Sunday sermons that preach of Hitler’s “evil” have eliminated Hitler’s god for their Christian audiences, but one only has to read from his own writings to appreciate that Hitler’s God equals the same God of the Christian Bible. Hitler held many hysterical beliefs which not only include, God and Providence but also Fate, Social Darwinism, and ideological politics. He spoke, unashamedly, about God, fanaticism, idealism, dogma, and the power of propaganda. Hitler held strong faith in all his convictions. He justified his fight for the German people and against Jews by using Godly and Biblical reasoning. Indeed, one of his most revealing statements makes this quite clear:“Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.”
[/quote][/quote]
Yeah, I don’t think it has any academic value either either. So why do you think it is interesting? :s