I can buy oil for my 2 strokes scooter from 60NT for a litre all the way up to 500NT for synthetic oil. Mineral oil is generally no more than 150NT and the cheapest synthetic oil starts at about 300NT. I used to be able to buy a cheaper one for 200 but it’s no longer available.
For the longest time I was buying synthetic oil made by Repsol. It’s called “Synthetico” and it costs 300NT. For my NSR, I often even bought the “Competicion” kind, also made by Repsol but at a very high price of 500NT.
I use 2 litres per month on average. If I buy the cheap stuff for 80NT at the gas station, I’m at 160NT per month. If I buy synthetic oil, I’m at 600NT per month. Over two moths only, I can save 880NT. This said, I can buy a new piston, sleeve, rings, crankshaft bearing, and all necessary gaskets for a whole new top end for 960NT and have it installed in three hours max. If you get the mechanic to replace it, you’re looking at 3000NT MAX. I can save 3000NT in oil money in 7 months. I can’t see my engine dying within 7 months even if I used the cheap oil. So why would I bother with synthetic oil?
I do notice the bike smokes a tad more when it’s cold and the exhaust has a stronger smell to it but other than that, I do not notice a difference in performance at all with the cheap oil.
Is there any reasons why I should go back to using synthetic?
And how about four strokes? The money difference is less over time as the bike uses less oil but the question is the same; which oil should be used?
Finally, is it true that mixing both synthetic an mineral oil is bad for the engine?
2 strokes smoke and exceed emmissions standards.
IMO, as Taiwan shows no interest in legislating that 2-strokes meet pollution and emissions standards, I hope they make them illegal as they phase out.
The best value for money I have ever found in 2T in this country is the NSR specific oil put out by Kymco. It was specially formulated to run very clean so as not to foul the RC valve. I used this in my NSRs for about 10 years (I had three at one time) and never had a lubrication failure with them, despite being tuned to high heaven and run hard all the time. I now run my aircooled dirt bike on it and the temperature tags on the head read from 10~30C lower than with any of the other oils I’ve tried. BTW, the oil is made in Japan by a very reputable lubricant vendor and just repackaged by Kymco.
Very good value at NT$110 a liter IIRC. I don’t buy oil very often these days, so don’t blame me if the price has changed.
Please don’t buy the crap they sell at the gas station. You will gum up the rings and RC valve on your NSR in no time. These bikes are way too rare and precious to be treated like that. 3Q.
There are well documented benefits to using synthetic oils in 4 strokes, but perhaps that’s a topic for another thread.
You should not mix mineral and synthetics together on purpose. Wait until oil change time to switch. Two-strokes you can mix minerals and synthetics together (most the 2T oils sold as synthetics are only semi-synthetic anyway). Just don’t try to mix mineral base and castor oils together or bad things will happen.
[quote=“TainanCowboy”]2 strokes smoke and exceed emmissions standards.
IMO, as Taiwan shows no interest in legislating that 2-strokes meet pollution and emissions standards, I hope they make them illegal as they phase out.[/quote]
You can’t buy a new 2-stroke above 50cc now. And I believe that even the 50s are held to a higher standard than ever before.
There are ways to make 2-strokes pretty clean. I believe you can still buy 125 2-strokes in Europe despite strict emissions regulations. The emissions on these bikes are kept down by various ingenious technical things which I don’t really understand. Taiwan company CPI is making some of these. But they’re only exporting them at the moment, not selling them here.
In the meantime, two-stroke owners here can reduce pollution by keeping their bikes well-maintained.
And what about people who drive around in huge SUVs on their own? I find it hard to believe that a 3-litre engine produces fewer emissions than a little buzzy 50 or even a 100.
[quote=“joesax”]
And what about people who drive around in huge SUVs on their own? I find it hard to believe that a 3-litre engine produces fewer emissions than a little buzzy 50 or even a 100.[/quote]+1, especially when you consider all the engine oil that has to recycled, transmission fluid, oversized tires, batteries and other consumables. It’s not only what comes out the tailpipe.
Kymco has just recently come up with a 100cc, two strokes and they are legally allowed to sell them here. I tried one of them a couple weeks ago. They have EFI engines and also other technology in them that reduced the emissions. They do not smoke at all, even on a cold engine. Problem is they are too complicated for the regular mechanics so few people can fix these bikes here.
They are super fast too, a small tug gets the front wheel off the ground on acceleration.
My two strokes passed the emission test twice already. It does smoke a bit when cold though but not even a bit of smoke when it’s heated up. I’m not sure if the emission test is the same for 4 strokes and 2 strokes. All I know is it passed the test.
Yeah, I’ve heard good things about that NSR oil so that’s what I use for my RZR now. My RZR passed the emissions test - it smokes a lot when it first starts (on choke) but, soon stops. Before I took it to get tested for emissions, I took it on a high rev blast to try and clear the pipes out (have no idea if this would help or not, but it was fun anyway ) and it passed, no problems.
I’m sure SUVs and those blue trucks (each of which which probably hasn’t had more than 5 minutes of maintenance throughout its betel-nut drenched existence) probably produce a lot more pollution than a well-maintained 2 stroke bike engine. Not to mention the fact that they consume massively higher amounts of natural resources - drive your SUV for 20km and your 2-stroke bike and see which one uses more fuel.
I really like 2 strokes, and if they can make them more environmentally friendly, that’s great. With superbike technology now, I can only imagine how crazy fast a new generation NSR250 would be… :happybiker:
Even the older ones are still capable of taking out much bigger bikes on twisty roads…
The problem with two-strokes is that they have traditionally been most widely employed in low-tech, low-glamour devices like small motorcycles, lawnmowers, outboards and target-drone aircraft. They are frowned upon to the degree that they are not deemed worthy of serious research and development. This is sad because if it is allowed the same degree of mechanical and electronic sophistication as the four-stroke it is capable of specific outputs and efficiencies a four-stroke could barely dream of. The most powerful and most fuel efficient piston engine ever to fly was a two-stroke. Ditto for locomotive power. But for the advent of the gas turbine, things would be very different.
I always use Repsol’s Competicion 5W-50. I drive a Yamaha Breeze DX125cc. I also change the gear oil everytime I get an oil change. So every 900kms I change both and it cost me 600NT each time. I have noticed an improvement in performance, the bike runs quicker than it did in the past.
[quote=“stare”]I also change the gear oil everytime I get an oil change.[/quote]That’s more frequent than necessary. The smallest interval I have been recommended for gear oil changing is every 2000km. That’s how often I do it.
That’s not true. Honda in particular put very large amounts of money into 2-stroke research. Both 4- and 2-stroke technology has come a long way, but currently 2-stroke engines are not efficient beyond about 500cc.
Some very valid points have been made - about SUVs, for example. Emissions aside, the amount of fuel these things consume compared to lighter vehicles is criminal.
One of the reasons I don’t like 2-stroke engines is they are often in 50cc scooters, and the (girls) who ride them don’t know anything about maintaining them (or do know but don’t maintain them). Nothing sucks like being stuck behind one of these people in traffic.
I think synthetic is probably worth it if you have a big, expensive engine to protect. Smaller engines with short oil change intervals and low rebuild costs are probably not worth wasting it on.
[quote=“kamiwaza”]
That’s not true. Honda in particular put very large amounts of money into 2-stroke research. Both 4- and 2-stroke technology has come a long way, but currently 2-stroke engines are not efficient beyond about 500cc.
[/quote]
Um, yeah. Here’s a little two-stroke engine for you: Up to 14 cylinders, displacement: 25,480 liters. The one in the photo is ‘just’ a baby 8-cyl version. By far the most efficient internal combustion engines ever built are two-strokes, and most are more like 20 liters in capacity than 500cc. Look at the 10-cyl gas engines used for pumping natural gas, marine diesels, diesel-electric locomotive units… all way more efficient than four-strokes in similar power ranges. This is what I mean, people are not thinking beyond the simple crankcase compression, piston-ported, gasoline-burning, spark-ignited norm. Yes Honda has done some research into sparkless ignition and alternative combustion processes, but beyond that, nothing. If you want to see the cutting edge in two-stroke tech you need to be looking at turbo-diesels, opposed-piston units, uniflow engines, turbo-compounding etc. With the advent of low-sulfur diesel, biodiesel, electronic fuel injection and advances in turbocharger design there is more to come.
2-stroke TDi heavy hauler 2-stroke TDi aero engine 108,000hp container ship two-stroke diesel Hydrogen-burning pivotal-piston two-stroke MAN 79,000kW 2-stroke diesel generator
The problem long associated with the two-stroke is pollution and poor fuel economy. This is mostly from simple piston-ported design and the fact that the intake and exhaust port timings overlap, allowing a gasoline/air mixture to pass straight into the exhaust unburned. Using crankcase compression for cylinder filling means that total-loss lubrication is necessary, there’s no way to recycle the engine oil. A diesel cylinder sees no fuel until combustion starts, so no fuel can escape the fire. Pollution levels are therefore the same as a four-stroke. Use of a turbo or supercharger obviates the need for oil mist lubrication and a conventional four-stroke type lubrication system can be used. Hell, one of the most exquisite engines ever built (in the 50’s) was a 41 liter afterburning two-stroke turbo diesel with turbochargers mechanically linked to the crankshaft to divert unused energy from the turbines back into the drivetrain (Napier Nomad).
It’s been said many times that the average motor vehicle consumer is one of the most stubborn sonofabitches on the planet when it comes to real innovation. They go along with some minor changes in engine technology, but take away the basics of camshafts and valves or the four-stroke cycle and they will have none of it. It’s the industrial users that are brave enough to try new ideas.
[quote=“kamiwaza”]Hmm, well I’ll shut up.[/quote]I just meant to show you there’s more to two-stroke tech than your typical 50cc scooter engine, and that level of tech is not enough to base a whole ‘4-stroke good, 2-stroke bad’ paradigm on. No offence intended.
It’s funny how this thread about petro v synthetic always comes up.
Actually, when I read that your Repsol Synthetico costs 300NT, I almost shat myself. Then I realized you were talking about per liter. wow. Here, I get 4L for about $27.
The advice I’ve been given:
Try Shell Rotella: it’s cheap $13/gallon (that’s about 4L, no?) and it’s good.
or,
just stick to what the manual recommends.
But the best thing is, do your oil changes regularly, that’s more important than deciding which oil to use.
) and it passed, no problems.
