Tables turned on Fahrenheit 9/11’s maker

Ahhh…Michael Moore…what a guy! The man who made the CrockUmentary style of film-making so popular.

[quote]Tables turned on Fahrenheit 9/11’s maker
March 04, 2007, Tony Allen-Mills

THE hunter has become the hunted. Michael Moore, the celebrated left-wing film-maker, has become the unwilling subject of a new documentary that raises damaging questions about the credibility of his work.

The director and star of successful documentaries such as Roger & Me, Bowling for Columbine and Fahrenheit 9/11, Moore has repeatedly been accused by his right-wing enemies of distorting or manipulating the material in his films. On his website he dismisses his critics as “wacko attackos”.

Yet the latest assault on Moore’s film-making techniques has come from an unexpected quarter. In Manufacturing Dissent, a documentary to be shown for the first time at a Texas film festival on Saturday, a pair of left-wing Canadian film-makers take Moore to task for what they describe as a disturbing pattern of fact-fudging and misrepresentation.

“When we started this project we hoped to have done a documentary that celebrated Michael Moore. We were admirers and fans,” said Debbie Melnyk, who made the film with her husband, Rick Caine. “Then we found out certain facts about his documentaries that we hadn’t known before. We ended up very disappointed and disillusioned.”

Melnyk and Caine are best known for their previous documentary Citizen Black, about Conrad Black, the Canadian-born former proprietor of The Daily Telegraph. Last week both of them acknowledged an important debt to Moore for popularising the documentary genre.

Yet when Caine and Melnyk began to follow him as part of their own documentary, their efforts to interview him met with the same kind of obstruction, denial and, ultimately, physical ejection that Moore had suffered when he tried to track down Roger Smith, the former chief executive of General Motors, for his first film, Roger & Me.

It was in Flint, Michigan, Moore’s former home town, that Caine and Melnyk made the first discovery that they say rocked their confidence in his approach. Roger & Me was a hugely successful account of what Moore portrayed as a fruitless task to force Smith to answer questions about GM’s policies in closing the car manufacturing plants that had long been Flint’s economic lifeline.

Caine and Melnyk claim that Moore interviewed Smith on camera twice. But the scenes were left on the cutting room floor, apparently for greater dramatic effect.

Manufacturing Dissent includes a long catalogue of alleged exaggerations or distortions in several of Moore’s films. In Bowling for Columbine, a scathing indictment of US gun violence, Moore visited Toronto to show parts of the city that were supposedly so free of crime everyone left their front doors unlocked.

“In the film, Michael makes it look as though 100% of the doors were unlocked, but his local producer told us it was really only 40%,” said Caine.

Caine and Melnyk said they had hoped to interview Moore about his views on how much editing was acceptable before a factual documentary turned into misleading propaganda.

“We had met him at a premiere of the Columbine film in Toronto, and he said, ‘Oh yes, talk to my people and they’ll set something up’,” said Caine. “We then called his people and they said he’s not doing any more interviews in Toronto. We had his e-mail, we sent a letter to his lawyers, we had his phone number in New York. But each time he said no.”

Then Caine and Melnyk began to run into open hostility. Eventually, in a scene that might have come from Roger & Me, they were bundled out of an event at Kent State University, where Moore’s sister, Anne, knocked aside Caine’s camera.

Moore is reportedly editing his next film, Sicko, about the US healthcare system, and a spokesman said he had no comment on Manufacturing Dissent. On his website he dismissed critics of Bowling for Columbine as “lying liars” and claimed that “organised groups [are] going full blast trying to discredit me”.

Yet Caine and Melnyk insist they should not be confused with the right-wing hordes who want to damage Moore.

“If you have to sell out your values and principles to get at a greater truth, where does that leave you?” said Melnyk.

“If we think it’s wrong for the government to lie and manipulate, how do we think that [left-wingers] doing it is the solution?”
timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/w … 466668.ece[/quote]

When Canadians start questioning the Gospel of St. Michael, you just know the apocalypse is at hand.

I think this is a legitimate question: do you guys hate Michael Moore because he is left-wing, or because he distorts the truth?

If the latter (or a bit of both) what say you of Ann Coulter, Rush Limbagh, Sean Hannity and the rest of Moores counterparts on the right?

And this is not an attempt to deflect criticism of Moore, as I have been one of his most vocal critics since Roger & Me. But I do want to know where you guys stand. I’m pretty sure I know already but I always like to give people the benefit of the doubt to damn themselves as hypocrites.

[quote=“Muzha Man”]I think this is a legitimate question: do you guys hate Michael Moore because he is left-wing, or because he distorts the truth?

If the latter (or a bit of both) what say you of Ann Coulter, Rush Limbagh, Sean Hannity and the rest of Moores counterparts on the right?

And this is not an attempt to deflect criticism of Moore, as I have been one of his most vocal critics since Roger & Me. But I do want to know where you guys stand. I’m pretty sure I know already but I always like to give people the benefit of the doubt to damn themselves as hypocrites.[/quote]

I waited a long time for the dust to settle before I watched FH911. It was a crock of shit. It was so slappedtogether winkwinknudgenudge kinda film, I couldn’t understand why people even made a fuss about it.

I like documentaries, and am in the middle of Spike Lee’s When The Levees Broke (being no big fan of the Spike; I just watched Jesus Camp and have a couple of Iraq docus on the way. For me it IS honesty and extraordinarily high principles that make documentaries so wonderful to watch. Finally the truth! But MM is so full of himself that his obnoxious interviewing, which COULD be good if he wasn’t trying to Jerry Springer everyone he talked to, that I cannot in good faith watch his work without literally cursing the TV.

As for the Righties you mention, they don’t make documentaries. :smiley: I don’t listen to them, and have only read one of Coutler’s books. It was ok.

I don’t think I am right or left wing at all. I have views that fit with both groups. I didn’t watch Michael Moore’s movies because I thought he seemed obnoxious and thought the information would probably be presented in an annoying fashion, like just rubbing people’s noses in it.

I just hate anyone who can’t see the other person’s point of view in an argument, if you want to convince me you need to be able to explain why you don’t agree with the other person. Seems most time when these guys argue its more like a smear campaign.

[quote=“jdsmith”][quote=“Muzha Man”]I think this is a legitimate question: do you guys hate Michael Moore because he is left-wing, or because he distorts the truth?

If the latter (or a bit of both) what say you of Ann Coulter, Rush Limbagh, Sean Hannity and the rest of Moores counterparts on the right?

And this is not an attempt to deflect criticism of Moore, as I have been one of his most vocal critics since Roger & Me. But I do want to know where you guys stand. I’m pretty sure I know already but I always like to give people the benefit of the doubt to damn themselves as hypocrites.[/quote]

I waited a long time for the dust to settle before I watched FH911. It was a crock of shit. It was so slappedtogether winkwinknudgenudge kinda film, I couldn’t understand why people even made a fuss about it.

I like documentaries, and am in the middle of Spike Lee’s When The Levees Broke (being no big fan of the Spike; I just watched Jesus Camp and have a couple of Iraq docus on the way. For me it IS honesty and extraordinarily high principles that make documentaries so wonderful to watch. Finally the truth! But MM is so full of himself that his obnoxious interviewing, which COULD be good if he wasn’t trying to Jerry Springer everyone he talked to, that I cannot in good faith watch his work without literally cursing the TV.

As for the Righties you mention, they don’t make documentaries. :smiley: I don’t listen to them, and have only read one of Coutler’s books. It was ok.[/quote]

So, as a conservative republican you are more familar with the works and thoughts of the other side? I find that just so hard to believe especially as it the same story over and over again. “Ann Coulter, no, never listen to her. Rush, don’t know. Michael Moore, oh yeah, I can make a completely informed decision about him.”

Pass this by your son. I bet even he would find it stretches credulity.

[quote=“Muzha Man”][quote=“jdsmith”][quote=“Muzha Man”]I think this is a legitimate question: do you guys hate Michael Moore because he is left-wing, or because he distorts the truth?

If the latter (or a bit of both) what say you of Ann Coulter, Rush Limbagh, Sean Hannity and the rest of Moores counterparts on the right?

And this is not an attempt to deflect criticism of Moore, as I have been one of his most vocal critics since Roger & Me. But I do want to know where you guys stand. I’m pretty sure I know already but I always like to give people the benefit of the doubt to damn themselves as hypocrites.[/quote]

I waited a long time for the dust to settle before I watched FH911. It was a crock of shit. It was so slappedtogether winkwinknudgenudge kinda film, I couldn’t understand why people even made a fuss about it.

I like documentaries, and am in the middle of Spike Lee’s When The Levees Broke (being no big fan of the Spike; I just watched Jesus Camp and have a couple of Iraq docus on the way. For me it IS honesty and extraordinarily high principles that make documentaries so wonderful to watch. Finally the truth! But MM is so full of himself that his obnoxious interviewing, which COULD be good if he wasn’t trying to Jerry Springer everyone he talked to, that I cannot in good faith watch his work without literally cursing the TV.

As for the Righties you mention, they don’t make documentaries. :smiley: I don’t listen to them, and have only read one of Coutler’s books. It was ok.[/quote]

So, as a conservative republican you are more familar with the works and thoughts of the other side? I find that just so hard to believe especially as it the same story over and over again. “Ann Coulter, no, never listen to her. Rush, don’t know. Michael Moore, oh yeah, I can make a completely informed decision about him.”

Pass this by your son. I bet even he would find it stretches credulity.[/quote]

Well, I don’t know what to tell you. I find Coutler, Rush (never heard of Hannity) too fingerpointy for my taste. I watched MM movies because they were movies. I read LGF nearly everyday and they sometimes have indepth discussions about MM. And I have done enough reading on my own about 911 to know that FH911 was a bunch of do-do. I don’t believe I have to know everything about Coutler and Limbagh in order to grasp where MM is coming from.

Honestly MM, I am not as far right as you seem to think. lol And I am more conservative then I am Republican. :slight_smile:

It’s quite easy to get tired of Mr. Moore & his insipid acts of self-promotion.
There were some good moments in “Roger & Me”, yet that show was as much about promoting himself as any of the others. All the other movies since, have for me been mostly unwatchable. At least in terms of a valid thesis quite apart from conjecture & speculation. His work, from the standard of such a notable US non-comformist as H.L. Mencken, would seem to appear as hackism, albeit with a few moments of light entertainment. A momentary light-hearted diversion, at best.

I assume I would be even less of a fan during the age of VHS, when patience was indeed a virtue.

Everytime I view Mr. Moore’s antics in the Great White North, especially in “that sanctimonious icebox” known as Toronto, I feel like I’m watching the image of a yokel in action: Dufus Americanus.
To put it mildly, his act needs a re-vamp.

P.S. People who don’t lock their doors in T.O. are either insane or living out past North York somewhere.

“Canadian Bacon” was alright. Silly, but laughable.

Come on, John Candy and Rhea Perlman as cops who get a commission for fishing bodies out of the drink, shouting “Jump!” to a guy on the edge of Niagara Falls, getting fed up waiting in the cold, then shooting him down. That was funny.

[quote=“jdsmith”][quote=“Muzha Man”][quote=“jdsmith”][quote=“Muzha Man”]I think this is a legitimate question: do you guys hate Michael Moore because he is left-wing, or because he distorts the truth?

If the latter (or a bit of both) what say you of Ann Coulter, Rush Limbagh, Sean Hannity and the rest of Moores counterparts on the right?

And this is not an attempt to deflect criticism of Moore, as I have been one of his most vocal critics since Roger & Me. But I do want to know where you guys stand. I’m pretty sure I know already but I always like to give people the benefit of the doubt to damn themselves as hypocrites.[/quote]

I waited a long time for the dust to settle before I watched FH911. It was a crock of shit. It was so slappedtogether winkwinknudgenudge kinda film, I couldn’t understand why people even made a fuss about it.

I like documentaries, and am in the middle of Spike Lee’s When The Levees Broke (being no big fan of the Spike; I just watched Jesus Camp and have a couple of Iraq docus on the way. For me it IS honesty and extraordinarily high principles that make documentaries so wonderful to watch. Finally the truth! But MM is so full of himself that his obnoxious interviewing, which COULD be good if he wasn’t trying to Jerry Springer everyone he talked to, that I cannot in good faith watch his work without literally cursing the TV.

As for the Righties you mention, they don’t make documentaries. :smiley: I don’t listen to them, and have only read one of Coutler’s books. It was ok.[/quote]

So, as a conservative republican you are more familar with the works and thoughts of the other side? I find that just so hard to believe especially as it the same story over and over again. “Ann Coulter, no, never listen to her. Rush, don’t know. Michael Moore, oh yeah, I can make a completely informed decision about him.”

Pass this by your son. I bet even he would find it stretches credulity.[/quote]

Well, I don’t know what to tell you. I find Coutler, Rush (never heard of Hannity) too fingerpointy for my taste. I watched MM movies because they were movies. I read LGF nearly everyday and they sometimes have indepth discussions about MM. And I have done enough reading on my own about 911 to know that FH911 was a bunch of do-do. I don’t believe I have to know everything about Coutler and Limbagh in order to grasp where MM is coming from.

Honestly MM, I am not as far right as you seem to think. lol And I am more conservative then I am Republican. :slight_smile:[/quote]

Hey, don’t call Michael Moore MM and then me, Muzha Man, MM. Gets people all confused.

I don’t think you are that right wing, which is why I would hope for more criticism from people like you of the looneys on the right who have coopted your party and ideology - as Moore has for many of us on the other side. It’s no good pretending that these people dont exist and are not the visible faces of your party. Or do you agree with someone slamming Edwards in public as a faggot? If I was a Republican or conservative that would have gotten my indigination up this week far more than a hatchet job on Moore.

But…silence, and instead snickers about the loser Moore, who everyone with sense has long ago agreed is a liar, and a distorter, and a bad dresser to boot.

Anyway, you are deftly side-stepping my point so I won’t pursue it. But it is time you let the Brothers have some rest.

I was disappointed in F 9/11. I’ll be damned whether I care about Moore editing for effect. It left me feeling empty. I had waited to see it for so long (saw it about a year ago). Columbine was much better. Didn’t see the GM one.

It doesn’t confuse me. :wink:

[quote]
I don’t think you are that right wing, which is why I would hope for more criticism from people like you of the looneys on the right who have coopted your party and ideology - as Moore has for many of us on the other side. It’s no good pretending that these people dont exist and are not the visible faces of your party. Or do you agree with someone slamming Edwards in public as a faggot? If I was a Republican or conservative that would have gotten my indigination up this week far more than a hatchet job on Moore. [/quote]

I suppose I don’t come out and criticise them because unless they are making headlines, I have no idea what they are saying.

Are there threads about “this week” and whatever happened on Forumosa?

As for the “hatchet job” on Mr MM, I don’t see this article a hatchet job. I’m glad that someone has a bit of integrity left when making a documentary, even about a maker of documentaries. But again, it doesn’t surprise me, as I have felt all along that Mr MM was full of shit and was nothing more than an opportunist: it’s just the right time to be a snide obnoxious Bushhater and he’s made a killing off it. I respect his busines savy for knowing that, but to then call his films, especially FH911 “documentaries” is just too much for a reasonable person to do.

And the people who say Ann Coutler is hot, get your eyes examined. :slight_smile:

How’s that?

Who called Edwards a faggot? Is there an uproar about it?I haven’theard a thing.

I hope I didn’t sidestep your question this time.

jdstraightandnarrow

Well, there are lots of other people who create media that slam Bush and his government. If you don’t like Mr. Moore, go and see one of their presentations.

The guy’s a film maker. It’s his job to present what he wants to present in the way he want’s to present it. Frankly, I think he’s a tear-jerking whore who’s making money from the natural dissent and public opinion of that monkey in the white house. Of COURSE he’s a full of shit opportunist. I liked “Columbine” but hey, I don’t take all things I see at face value either. 911 was boring. He should have just picked one little part to focus on. Too spread out and unbelievable.

I’m already bored with this thread; put it back in international politics where it belongs. Yawn.

Mike Moore would probably still win an integrity race over 90 percent of the politicians we see every day in the media.

[quote=“Muzha Man”]I think this is a legitimate question: do you guys hate Michael Moore because he is left-wing, or because he distorts the truth? [/quote]Mucha Man -
Speaking for myself, and I am unanimous in this, I don’t hate Michael Moore. That would be a gross exaggeration of the importance of any feeling I have regarding him.
I think he has developed a pretty good money earner by making these BS ‘crockUmentary’ movies feeding what the looney left wants to believe. Good for him - He’s doing some “film” making and earning some big $$$'s from the rubes who desperately want to believe he’s showing them the “WAY, The Truth and The LIGHT.”
face it, everybody wants to believe it if somebody tells them what they want to hear. How do you think a ‘con’ man works?