Compared to almost 70 000 000 residents, that is “a few” although obviously it is still far too many. You also have to weigh in whether the complaints had any merit or not, which we can’t tell from the information given.[/quote]
Ah, the sight of shifting goalposts.
But anyway, the problem with your position here is that it is overly subjective and seems mostly based upon a few bad incidents you’ve had. I’ve had some too, including futile attempts to get abuses stopped that really left me miserable and angry for a long time (I don’t do cynicism). But you’d have to be clueless not to have seen a sea change over the past decade as fenlander has written. For every bad incident you’ve had there are a dozen animal protection groups formed, or reports of people turning in their neighbors. For every asshole dropping off his dog there are aixin mamas of all ages out their feeding and caring for them.
I interviewed an aixin mama last year and she said that yes, 20 years ago most people thought women like her were freaks, and fools. But there has been a massive shift in recent years. It will take another 20 years for it all to become codified and formalized as in the west, but the tide has turned and it is not ever going back. That’s why many of us feel positive. We’re not deluded, we just don’t see the need to feel hopeless and cynical when we know things are getting better and will continue to get better however much there are still horrific things happening right now.[/quote]
Yah Mucha Man’s post pretty much sums it up for me.
Here is another case from just yesterday of animal loving Britain and a bit of information on the stray situation there. It is perhaps WORSE than in Taiwan http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2021844/Who-thing-How-Gentle-Arnie-wandering-streets-KNIFE-sticking-back.html
I’m not disagreeing with you that things are not changing, but saying that this law will definitely be enforced - well, I really can’t see it happening. I’m sorry, I just can’t.
And fenlander trying to prove that animal abuse in the UK is worse than in Taiwan - sorry, mate, there is no way in this world that I will ever, ever believe that. I see animal abuse on a day-today basis here - something which I never saw in the UK unless it made the papers.
[quote=“Super Hans”]I’m not disagreeing with you that things are not changing, but saying that this law will definitely be enforced - well, I really can’t see it happening. I’m sorry, I just can’t.
And fenlander trying to prove that animal abuse in the UK is worse than in Taiwan - sorry, mate, there is no way in this world that I will ever, ever believe that. I see animal abuse on a day-today basis here - something which I never saw in the UK unless it made the papers.[/quote]
Well you are right that there is a lot animal abuse in Taiwan; however, you were also saying that very few people in UK abuse animals which is a crock of bull. I have just shown stats to prove animal abuse is a major problem in the UK which you choose to ignore. However, if you still think that then you will always think that so it would be like knocking my head against a brick wall. I also showed you an article demonstrating that the conviction rate for animal abuse crimes in the UK is very poor which you also chose to ignore . So far you have shown no stats or evidence apart from your subjective cultural experience in Taiwan. There is also a lot of animal abuse in Taiwan as there is in the UK; perhaps one has more than the other but there is way too much in BOTH countries.
Every week I am starting to feel that Taipei is really like a whole other micro nation within Taiwan. Anywhere outside of there there are more animals abused than not as i can see it
better, for sure. look what they used to do with stray dogs, and now look. couple years ago the local gov hired a team of vets (i think 1 vet and students) and went around to each village in our township fixing dogs for free. they setup at the schools on weekends and offered to do it for free to anyone who brought in their dog.
Taiwan is getting better,slowly. still a far cry from anything resembling compassion, but it was worse. that said there is the new designer dog craze which has formed a new form of cruelty, at least to me. carrying around dogs in bags/cages all day…starting to look like Japan.
but i must say hans is very right in saying the new rules banning traps wont change much. Where i can see it maybe changing sometime is in the manufacture and import of it. on a retail level, they will still be sold everywhere until they are not easy to source and/or become to expensive for people to bother with. i cant see people not being bale to find them for any reason related to they are not allowed. not for such a cause that very few people here care about.
also the risks about reporting people…makes me think only in Taipei you have some protection. You get in the wrong persons face outside of that city and you may be eating through tubes soon, or worse. and that is a very real and common thing unfortunately. we see that happen here quite a lot, and REALLY stops people from doing ANYTHING about any wrong doing, and people literally get away with murder due to it. its a shitty situation, but a real one.
Actually, i believe they work fine for that, but what would work much better would be for irresponsible, arrogant dog owners (very often foreigners) to show a modicum of respect for the farming communities that they live in and tie up or fence off their dogs at night so they are not free to maraud around the area. What is it exactly that you expect the farmer to do? You can’t let your dog wander around getting up to whatever mischief it wants in any of your home countries - why do people think they should be able to do it here?
It’s a fair point. There are bloody hundreds of dogs lurking around my bit of land, ostensibly “owned” by local people but in reality semi-feral. In theory, they are kept to protect the owner’s farm from crime, which is apparently quite common. You therefore have this ridiculous battle going on between criminals and the farmers (or their dogs); if the police were to make a concerted effort to wipe out the criminals preying on farmers, and also clamp down on animal abuse (i.e., not looking after your dog properly) it would probably solve a lot of problems all at once. A well-fed and properly-trained dog generally can’t be bothered to go chasing chickens, or can be disciplined not to.
On the other hand, dogs are often clever enough to know what a trap is and carefully avoid it, unless it’s well-hidden. It’s only the occasional dumb one that gets caught, so traps don’t really work that well.
:ohreally: Of all the neglected, mangy mutts I’ve ever seen out in the countryside, precisely zero were owned by foreigners.
If you want a practical suggestion, I wonder if dogs could be trained to guard chickens? After all, they can be trained to guard other animals. A simple optical sensor could be placed around a free-range area to detect predators, attached to an alarm which would both alert the guard dog and (possibly) scare the intruder. Just a thought.
[quote=“finley”]It’s a fair point. There are bloody hundreds of dogs lurking around my bit of land, ostensibly “owned” by local people but in reality semi-feral. In theory, they are kept to protect the owner’s farm from crime, which is apparently quite common. You therefore have this ridiculous battle going on between criminals and the farmers (or their dogs); if the police were to make a concerted effort to wipe out the criminals preying on farmers, and also clamp down on animal abuse (i.e., not looking after your dog properly) it would probably solve a lot of problems all at once. A well-fed and properly-trained dog generally can’t be bothered to go chasing chickens, or can be disciplined not to.
On the other hand, dogs are often clever enough to know what a trap is and carefully avoid it, unless it’s well-hidden. It’s only the occasional dumb one that gets caught, so traps don’t really work that well.
:ohreally: Of all the neglected, mangy mutts I’ve ever seen out in the countryside, precisely zero were owned by foreigners.
If you want a practical suggestion, I wonder if dogs could be trained to guard chickens? After all, they can be trained to guard other animals. A simple optical sensor could be placed around a free-range area to detect predators, attached to an alarm which would both alert the guard dog and (possibly) scare the intruder. Just a thought.[/quote]
Every foreign guest (tourist) visitor that i have had come to Taiwan has remarked on three things: 1. the amazing friendliness of the Taiwanese 2. The number of betel nut stands 3. The number of unleashed dogs wandering around. So your right, Finley, the dog problem in Taiwan is absolutely out of control.
As for the mangy mutts - you might be surprised to know that these are not the kind of dogs that attack the chickens. The mangy mutts are usually unwanted puppies from the owned dogs that are left to do the other natural thing that dogs do - breed - or they are dumped or abandoned dogs (and i do know of a foreigner around here who recently abandoned 3 dogs - one of which was pregnant). They generally die horrible deaths of starvation over a period of a couple of weeks, though the owners, who allow their dogs to roam and breed willy nilly, and are directly responsible for this cruelty, will still tell you they are ‘dog lovers’. Go figure. Anyway, in that condition they are generally too weak to dig under a fence or even catch a chicken.
No, the ones that attack chickens are owned dogs. I and my neighbors have seen them. They are fit and healthy and have collars. Dogs will kill chickens just for the fun of it. Also, most dogs will take a bit of live meat over a bowl of dried dog food any day. it’s not their fault - they are just doing what comes naturally - i don’t blame them - i blame the owners.
Regarding your practical suggestion, i still think my practical suggestion is a hell of a lot simpler. Just tie your bloody dogs up when you are not there with them - just like you would have to do in Australia, America, Canada, England, Sth Africa, France, New Zealand or in any developed country you care to name. It’s pure arrogance on the part of dog owners (and i repeat, most of the worst culprits around here are foreigners) who move into farming communities and refuse to tie their dogs up and think that their dogs have some special right in Taiwan to cause whatever mischief they want to.
It would certainly be ideal if people didn’t let their dogs roam wherever the hell they want. But it ain’t going to happen: this is Taiwan, where nobody gives a rat’s ass if their dog causes mayhem, and where (as pingdong pointed out) if you tell your neighbour to get his dog off your land, you’re likely to meet with a mysterious “accident”. And seriously, where on earth do you get the idea that those dog-owners are foreigners? How many foreign neighbours do you have, compared to locals? I’m treated as some sort of curiosity by the local farmers because there simply aren’t any foreigners in the area for miles around, let alone dog-owning ones. Even the neighbour’s puppy comes to sit and stare at the waiguoren
And I still say that a dog that attacks chickens for fun has not been trained properly. Dogs are kept as pets precisely because they can be trained (with some effort!) not to indulge their natural instincts.
Ultimately, it IS up to the farmer to protect his chickens as best he can - in the UK, the main problem is foxes, which can subvert pretty much any trap you set for them (and will probably drag it onto your front doorstep just for good measure). Farmers have caused a great deal of damage by blaming nature for every misfortune that befalls them and using brute force to “correct” it. I try to take the attitude that, if nature appears to have some problem with what I’m doing, then I’m probably doing something wrong. There is usually a solution, but it may involve experimentation and careful thought.
This is Taidong and there has been a major influx of foreigners into the area in recent years and i do feel strongly that you need to show a basic level of respect for the existing farming community when you move into their area. I don’t want to go into specifics, but there are seven foreigner owned dogs in my immediate vicinity (800 m). But this is not about me. Every foreigner around here (though not necessarily within strike range of my chickens) seems to have several dogs and most of them allow them to roam around at night. Some of them leave them unrestrained and un-neutered on their vacant blocks of land and go out to feed them every few days. Most of them have lost dogs at some point to traps or poisoning, for which they invariably rail against the ‘barbaric Taiwanese farmer’. By contrast, my nearest Taiwanese neighbors tie their dogs up at night or have them enclosed.
Your point about ‘well-trained dogs’ is quite valid (the key to this discussion actually) and one of the foreigners in my area does seem to have his dogs pretty well trained and i think he does in fact lock at least a couple of them in the house at night, but I can’t say as much for some of the others. Not that they are not nice enough people - just not great at understanding what impact their adored dogs and cats might be having on others. (Edit: happy to report a new convert to nightime restraint - it’s catching on already)
Having said that, i don’t know for a fact whose dog(s) it is that has been conducting the latest raids on my and other neighbors’ chickens and I am not directly accusing anyone, just raising a general point about dog owners taking more responsibility.
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‘Nature’ is a difficult thing to define - technically, everything that exists is natural, even pollution - but i am guessing at your meaning of the word (correct me if i am wrong) and i would argue that the ridiculous amount of dogs in Taiwan represents a radical imbalance in nature. Apart from the problems they cause for poultry farmers, they also catch and kill various native animals. Occasionally i lose the odd chicken to eagles, and i just accept that, but i don’t accept having to wake up to a chicken bloodbath just because people think their dog packs should be allowed to roam free. And i have no sympathy for people bleating about their dogs getting caught in traps when farmers are forced to take measures to protect their livelihoods from irresponsible owners. If you don’t want your dog to get caught in a trap, don’t let it roam around other people’s private property. Problem solved!
Tying dogs up is not the solution, unfortunately. It’s banned in many places because it causes dogs to become much more aggressive and therefore far more likely to hurt another animal (including humans) should they ever get off leash or escape the chain (which they do).
And, to get back to the topic of this thread, steel-jaw traps have not been banned in Taiwan, despite what you may be reading from some of the groups here; what’s actually happened is that they have changed the rules so that they can only be used under special license, which means that aboriginal ‘hunters’ here will still be littering the countryside with them and maiming and killing our pets, endangered wildlife, and even children (yes, people have been hurt by these devices too).
That’s what I suspected. I’m sure most of the chicken-thieves are “pets” who get a regular kicking from their owners, apart from being tied up (it makes me mad seeing a dog on a six-inch leash in the hot sun without so much a bowl of water). As dulan drift says, dogs that are actually abandoned tend not to last very long.
Oh, great. There’s always a get-out clause, isn’t there. Anyway, we were debating the usefulness of these traps, which is sort-of on-topic. After all, if they’re pointless, then farmers, hunters, and random aboriginal people shouldn’t give a shit whether they’re banned or not.
Must say, I’m quite surprised about that (the number of foreigners, and the way they treat their dogs). Maybe these guys are from the backwoods of Kazakhstan or something. Are you sure you’re not just observing them feeding the local strays? I mean, if the dogs are wandering around on vacant land and just get the occasional bowl of food, in what sense are they actually “owned”?
You’re quite right, of course. But it doesn’t matter whether you define nature narrowly (something which no longer exists because we’ve disturbed it beyond the point of recognition) or broadly (nature as it exists now, complete with human disturbances): the sensible course of action is still the same. That is, your farming method should avoid head-to-head conflict with whatever’s going on in your environment, because you will lose. Nature is always bigger and stronger than you are.
If you attempt to cull dogs - by whatever method - all that will happen is that other dogs will come in from outside, or they will simply breed more. Populations always balance the available resources. Even if a cull is truly necessary, gin traps are unacceptable because they are (a) unnecessarily cruel and (b) indiscriminate. There is no justification for their use, just as there is no justification for using DDT. In the UK, both traps and foxhunting are illegal, yet chicken farming goes on as before.
Well, here’s the thing. Dogs can’t read deeds. As far as the dog is concerned, those chickens, and that land, are not “yours”. It’s a canine KFC. Hence my suggestion to use guard dogs: you need someone to “talk the talk” on your behalf. In addition, have you taken every possible measure to make your chickens safe? Have you provided roosting perches in places that are inaccessible to predators - enclosed, off the ground, or in the middle of a lake? Have you attempted to structure your land so that predators are at a ‘tactical disadvantage’ - for example, by planting thorny bushes which would inconvenience a dog or even allow a chicken to hide in? Have you made it easy for chickens to escape in case of attack? Do you have a cock who will keep an eye on his harem? Have you chosen a non-stupid chicken breed that can/will run from dogs? In other words, have you done all the things that, in nature, ensure neither chickens nor dogs become extinct? Have you then added things like electric fences, which will slow down or discourage most animals without killing them? Seriously, if we can’t outsmart a dog, we don’t deserve to call our species “sapiens”.
I don’t keep chickens yet, but I’ll need some in the near future. I’ll probably be tearing my hair out, same as you, when they get slaughtered. I’ll either figure out how to fix it, or I’ll keep some different kind of animal. But I won’t be using gin traps.
Ok, could you please supply details of these studies? Who conducted them, where, which native animals are more likely to be hurt by leashed dogs, and in which countries has chaining of dogs been banned?
That’s funny, coz that’s exactly what the uncontrolled dogs do as well.
Ok, could you please supply details of these studies? Who conducted them, where, which native animals are more likely to be hurt by leashed dogs, and in which countries has chaining of dogs been banned?[/quote]
I would have to Google that, but you can do that yourself if you really want the info.
That’s funny, because that’s exactly what the uncontrolled dogs do as well.[/quote]
And which is the subject of another thread. But not this one.
Will they mostly be located on “reservations” (I don’t know the term here, using the US term for Native American allotted plots of land, “Indian Reservations”) or will they bre pretty much anywhere in the countryside?
Almost anywhere in the countryside. They’re used primarily to catch hunted wildlife and ‘deter’ other animals, such as dogs, cats, and rats from coming onto people’s property (whether it’s actually their property or not).
There will likely be a decline in suburban farmers using them, but we still find them in the mountain areas where ‘hunters’ try to trap wildlife such as wild pigs and civets.
Ok, could you please supply details of these studies? Who conducted them, where, which native animals are more likely to be hurt by leashed dogs, and in which countries has chaining of dogs been banned?[/quote]
I would have to Google that, but you can do that yourself if you really want the info.
[/quote]
Actually, if you’re the one making the statement then it’s incumbent upon you to supply the supporting evidence, but don’t worry, i did your legwork for you and although i didn’t find anything about leashed dogs being a greater danger to other animals than unleashed ones, i found a lot of stuff about the appalling toll that uncontrolled dogs (and cats) take on the wildlife. Far, far worse than what i have witnessed in this area from trapping. Some examples (many more if you want them - but i am sure you don’t):
[quote]Dogs also come in contact with other wildlife. They chase blackbuck away from grazing sites, kill fawns unable to run fast enough, and pounce on helpless chicks of endangered ground-nesting birds like great Indian bustards. Every year, in the deserts of Jodhpur, a thousand cases of chinkaras that have been attacked and killed by dogs have been recorded
[/quot.e] First Post, India
[quote]70 kiwi killed by dogs in New Zealand[/quote] Wildlife Extra, New Zealand
[quote]• Unrestrained domestic cats and dogs are one of the biggest threats to our wildlife, especially in urban areas.
• In four days in June 2007, Bat Rescue Brisbane rescued six flying foxes that had been attacked by dogs. All bats had to be put down.
• Vets and wildlife carers responding to a survey by Wildlife Queensland’s Glider Network in 2007 recorded that domestic animal attacks were responsible for 30% of all gliders needing care by that group – the biggest single cause– and fewer than 13% of those gliders attacked survived to be released to the wild.
• Redland Shire Council says that dogs are one of the main causes of koala death in the Redland Shire.
• Each Australian pet cat, if allowed to wander, has been estimated by some sources to kill an average of 16 mammals, 8 birds and 8 reptiles per year.
• The diet of Australia’s unrestrained cats has been recorded as including 186 bird species, 64 mammals, 86 reptiles 10 amphibians/invertebrates – that’s 347 different native wildlife species.[/quote][/quote]
Wildlife Preservation Society of Queensland
Furthermore, whereas domestic dogs generally just kill for fun, often not even eating their victims, the aborigines do it to feed their family and maintain their traditional lifestyles. Basically what you are advocating is that the aborigines be stripped of their rights to feed themselves and protect their stock while meanwhile your dogs and cats should be free to roam unrestrained through their private property and national parkland causing whatever destruction they want. It’s just a breathtakingly arrogant, and culturally fascist kind of thinking.
Let’s remember folks we are talking about Taiwan. Aboriginals here don’t have any rights to trapping and hunting except for very very few ceremonial ocassions. So there is no argument that anyone is stripping their rights to provide for their families. They are engaged in illegal activity that results in a NT450,000 fine if caught according to a cop in a mountain station I was chatting with yesterday.
