I see what’s going on. The system will automatically edit out pejoratives in singular form but not in the plural form. So, the appearance of which word surprised you? Niggers, shylock, or Chinks?
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Your lack of bellicosity is appreciated–and I feel that your indignation is misplaced. I still don’t have the impression that the posts in this thread should be construed as targeting Taiwanese men as a whole. Just those who attack foreigners for chatting up Taiwanese women.
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What’s wrong with ending a sentence in a preposition?
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Misanthropic = Characterised by a hatred or mistrustful scorn for humankind
Misogynistic = Of or characterised by a hatred of women
I don’t see how either would apply. I don’t happen to hate any particular group, or any particular individuals for that matter. The original comment wasn’t meant to be taken seriously. But even if it were, I’m male and would therefore be included in the (not-to-be-taken-seriously) generalisation. (Forsythe, please don’t take this as a cue to extol the virtues of generalisation )
- Your point is well taken. All of the words you mentioned are highly offensive. However, the word I was referring to is usually taken out by the filter–apparently the filter doesn’t catch the plural form of that word, although it used to catch it even when the “s” was in front. MODERATORS!!! One of the regular posters is fond of the word “snigger,” which the filter used to catch.
The word that the two of you are looking for is:
Misandry = hatred of men.
Cheers
(1) Serendipity, I don’t want you to have the impression that I am directing my indignation against you personally, and I certainly do not want you to get the impression that this verbal exchange we’ve been having qualifies as one of the “Taiwan Fights.” Again, I was reacting against threads that were interpreted by me to be a blanket statements directed against us Taiwanese guys. You opined that I overreacted and I see and respect your contention.
(2) When I was a student at NTU, my English professor, a visiting scholar from England, told us to avoid ending sentences with preposition as it is, he said in inimitable Oxbridge accent, “less than sublime.”
(3)I was not implying that you hate any particular group or race. I was simply referring to the statement you made and you have made it clear that the statement was made in jest, the word choice, be it misanthropic, misogynistic, or, as buttercup have contended, misandr[ous], becomes a non-issue (Unless you want to start a wordplay pissing match)
(4) Gotcha.
(5) Buttercup: Thanks. I almost consign this word first coined by American feminist theorists into oblivion.
quote:
Originally posted by serendipity: My impression is that the generalizations extend only to men who are involved in bar fights, not the entire population of Taiwanese men.
Right. Chainsmoker spoke of rising violence when he started this thread. So, is there any report of such violence from places NOT being in the vicinity of bars and pubs? I don’t know of any that would be between locals and foreigners. (Gangsters are violent to anyone if you get into their way.)
One reason I don’t drink any alcohol is that I prefer to keep control about myself. Some clashes in a pub or at a bar are imho no sign of a general rise of violence in the population, just a sign that the guys who are looking for it (and which can be found in any nation) are asking for it a bit louder now. It is of no importance at all where one comes from or how he (she?) looks like, there will always be a reason, racial differences are just a bit more convenient as such reason because they stick out and you don’t have the pain of doing long analyses what you could hate on a particular guy…
Olaf
PS: (OT) The reply function is a bit… Its not easy for a usenetter to get used to this posting procedure…
quote:I've got no problems with the language being used here. I watch these threads pretty closely and lately I've been impressed with the quality of discussion going on. As the words in question were being discussed in hypothetical situations and were not being used in an offensive way, I've got no problems with it. As for what constitutes offensive usage, well I could point to [url=http://www.oriented.org/terms/]Oriented's Terms & Conditions[/url] but ultimately it comes down to how I want to interpret it. If John Lennon had wanted a copy of [url=http://www.john-lennon.com/songlyrics/songs/Woman_is_the_Nigger_of_the_World.htm]"Woman is the Nlgger of the World"[/url] posted on Oriented, I would glady comply and take it as an honour. Similarly, a discussion of the Merchant of Venice is fine by me. It's the intent contained within language that causes offence, so I'm letting this one ride... FWIW, I think that language filters have only very limited value. I would much prefer letting people say what's on their mind.
Originally posted by serendipity: ...the words you mentioned are highly offensive. However, the word I was referring to is usually taken out by the filter--apparently the filter doesn't catch the plural form of that word, although it used to catch it even when the "s" was in front. MODERATORS!!! One of the regular posters is fond of the word "snigger," which the filter used to catch.
Am I alone in thinking that the behavior of lawmakers sets a bad example for the entire population? They’re not often violent these days (Lo Fu-chu vs. Diane Lee being the exception), but they certainly don’t try to resolve differences in a cool-headed, reasonable way.
Not to mention soap operas…
Steven Crook
KEEPING UP WITH THE WAR GOD
http://www.romanization.com/books/crook/index.html
The behavior of those in the Legislative Yuan is embarrassing and pathetic. It has always stuck me as odd that most Chinese on Taiwan (sober ones) do not easily resort to striking each other, but in front of the cameras and in what should be a body of decorum, they go at it like six-year olds.
What would happen if there were a bar in the legislature?..
I can remember being at what I thought was a quiet little bar on Shida one night with some friends. I heard gun shots and as I walked out found blood on my shirt. Thank God the blood wasn’t mine. Yes, it seems like there are more fights these days, regardless of whether they are locals vs. foreignors, or whatever.
Not Charmed, while not the most eloquent speaker (don’t call me haolie-it sounds goofy! I am starting to like Ghost Face, however) does have a point. Westerners do tend to name call, insult and maybe take action. Tough guys in Taiwan do wait with the patience of a predator and strike when you least expect it. Don’t be foolish.
It also helps to be a little tactful and polite, like you would at cocktail party. If you see some little guy in a bad suit standing next to a ‘total shag’ why don’t you introduce yourself and include the guy in the conversation? It might be a slight annoyance in the way of getting to know this girl better, but it beats getting beaten up by 10 gangters!
Although the original thread - about bar violence - seems to have given way to the usual back and forth on race issues, I’d like to pass on an an experience I had last summer. I’m hoping that it might be helpful to some when considering where to go out for a night on the town.
I was having some drinks with a Rawandan friend of mine at 99. We were drinking and chatting until about 1:00 when we decided to walk to the nearest late night dance venue. We chose Spin.
I’m sure many of you already know where this story is going. Spin is a notorious gangster zone. Ever since the days of those “Tibetan” hoods that used to beat up lone foriegners for sport, up to now, when the place is clearly owned and operated by local “Wise guys”, it’s been a bad news place. [If you doubt the mob connections - just look at the dudes at the door! They aren’t “bouncers”!] At the same time, Spin has also been kind of alluring because of it’s location, cheap price, unpretentious clientel, sometimes decent music, and the 45 free tickets tie in. For a long time it was everbody’s favorite dive.
My Rawandan mate and I paid our NT300 and went down into a reasonably crowded scene. The demographics of the pub have changed a lot over the years - since the gangsters took over - much less western. At the bar we chatted with the very nice bartenders who’ve been there for years. They still rememberd me from the days when I spent far too many all nighters there. As a very friendly, “hao-jo bu jien” gesture, the bartenders even gave us SPIN VIP cards. My buddy hit the dance floor. I hung by the bar, and made a point of greeting Casey [or KC, I’m not sure which] the guy who is the owner of both 45 and Spin. I’ve “known” Casey from the get go of his two business enterprises. We are not buddies, but we have had beers together on several occasions before.
My Rawandan friend and I spent about 45 minutes down in Spin. We did some pretty harmless dancing alongside some local girls, and had a couple of beers. In my recollection we were well behaved by Taipei seedy pub standards. I lived in Taipei for 12 years, I thought I had learned the survival tactics for places like Spin. I knew to aovid the gangster tables, to avoid anything confrontational, and to be circumspect when interacting with local girls. My Rawandan friend wasn’t quite as clued in to all that, but he was pretty harmless on the dance floor.
We decided to leave Spin. It was pretty dead. We had it in mind to try some place in Eastern Taipei like TU. My buddy, one of the nicest guys you’d ever meet - softspoken, polite, laid back, was pretty drunk that night. I guess I was too, but not quite as bad. He went up the stairs first, I was about 30 seconds behind him.
As you might have guessed, he is black. Well, the 3-4 mobsters at the door were shouting at him by the time I reached street level. I don’t understand gutteral Taiwanese so I can’t account for all that was said, but there was enough shit like “gan ni, hei gwei” that I got the idea. Basically they were saying, "Fuck you ****** ", “Get your black ass out of here”, etc. My mate, who hadn’t lived in Taiwan for very long had somehow already learned the words, “Hei gwei” [literally,black ghost - or - ****** ]. He took offense to the words, and told the guys not to call him that. In standing up for himself, he made the biggest mistake of the evening.
I immediately saw where this was going. I started pulling him over towards a Taxi waiting by the 7-11 on Chin-Shan. We couldn’t budge. Too much racial abuse flowing. Now about 4-5 guys were around us. You know things are going south fast when local dudes start doing that - “I’m a gonna kill you, ************” kind of screaming.
One guy, who was with the boss, Casey when I greeted him down in pub,said to me, “I know you are Casey’s friend. This isn’t your problem.”
I launched into the usual “pai-se, pai-se/ Sorry, we are drunk” stuff which has worked before when surronded by Taiwanese lads with their Irish-up. My mate was still reeling from the verbal abuse. I grabbed his arm and pretty much dragged him to the Taxi.
We didn’t get get anywhere in that Taxi that night. Before the driver could drive us off to TU, I saw the pack of hoods by the door make a bee-line for us. By chance I had been the first one into the cab. My friend was sitting curbside. The door of the cab flew open, several guys grabbed my buddy out of the car. The driver quickly jumped out, locked the back doors with me inside, and made himself scarce.
The next events pass as if in a dream. The affable Rawandan, an engineer for a major telecommunications company, was tossed around like a rag doll. He went down fast. It seemed as if there were about 10 guys wailing on him, beating him with clubs, kicking his limp, bloodied body into the gutter.
Car after car of “big brother’s” screached up to the corner, and disgorged their contents, 4-5 guys at a time. In what seemed like seconds, there were 20 maybe 30 very pissed off, very hostile gangsters swarming all over the guy in the gutter, and the corner.
I sat in a trance in the car, waiting for my turn, which I was sure was coming. I didn’t dare meet the eye of any of the guys glaring in at me. One guy came up through the crowd of gangsters, and I mean it was a crowd, and made some gesture - like writing - on the hood of the Taxi. In the state I was in, I was sure it meant something like, “Kill him”.
Sitting trapped in the cab, I was reflecting ,in slow motion, that I had had a fairly long run of good luck as a sometimes occasional sometimes frequent player on the night scene. I was sure that my time was up. I was sure that my mate was dead in the street. The beating had been swift but incredibly savage.
People were all around staring. Club people. You know, the kinds of people you see heaps of times at the pub, but never know. An ex-student of mine, and her Japanese boyfriend saw me trapped in the cab, surronded by hoods, a guy left for dead in the gutter - and laughed.
I saw Casey in the crowd. Briefly,his eyes met mine, we both looked away. Perhaps things had escalated beyond the scope of his ability to intervene. But I was sure of one thing, my knowing him, had prevented me from being in the gutter, with my mate - this far.
Two cops rode up on a scooter. Took one look at the scene, and… rode away.
Meanwhile more and more maifiosi were arriving. My taxi was surrounded. The guys were still cursing, darting back and forth like sharks in a frenzy, looking to vent.
Two cop cars finally arrived. I’ve never seen cops look scared. These guys defintely did. They were seriously outnumbered - and we all know about the realtionship with the “law” and the gangs. But, with the crowd of “witnesses” now all around, including a number of westerns spilling out of 99, and a guy on the brink of death in the gutter, they needed to do something.
One cop gazed into the Taxi at me. I started banging on the window, asking for help. The door wouldn’t open. From out of the crowd of gangsters, a guy comes forward - not the driver - opens the driver’s side door, flips a switch, now my door can open.
My heart is in my mouth. I look over to see my friend being strapped to a gurney and loaded onto an ambulance.
Some newbie Shi-ta Mandarin student types are trying to make a cop take a deposition of some sort. They seem very, very freaked out.
I approach a cop, speaking in Chinese. He says, “Wo bu tong” - and walks away. Another cop the same thing. Two cops leave in their car. Lots of gangsters milling around.
I try another cop, "You have to help me. Some people just attacked my friend. They might be after me [all of this in excited but intelligible Chinese]. The cop just looks at me like I’m crazy, turns his back and walks away. A couple of senior looking “brothers” are clearly in control of the scene. The cops look nervously at them, and at each other.
I see a taxi crusing down Chin-Shan. I step into the street, get in, and stare straight in front of me, expecting the door to fly open, as we wait for the light to turn green at the corner.
The cabbie sees that something’s up. Says, “What’s going on here?” He seems worried that he is getting involved with something. I assure him that the action is over. Police are just doing a routine check. Very slowly, he drives away.
I have the driver drop me blocks from my house. I run home through back alleys, looking over my shoulder all the way.
What a night.
I didn’t go out for a couple of months after that, in fact that experience really made me realize that I had gotten too old for that kind of bullshit.
My friend spent 4 days in intesive care. Fractured skull, broken ribs, badly bruised face. He had arrived in the emergency room so drained of blood that they almost lost him. Fortunatley for him, his company paid for a private nurse to look after him for a couple of weeks of recuperation at home.
I only saw him tiwce after that night, before I left Taiwan. He was still shook-up, so was I. We didn’t have much to say to each other. What could we say?
For any Taiwanese reader who might feel offended by or uncomfortable with this posting, please understand that I’m not writing this to add weight to some of the absurd racist crap that people digress on in these forums.
I think that we would all agree that this kind of dispicable racsim - I mean the gangsters beating this guy, as far as they knew, to death - just because of his race, could happen anywhere in the world. There is always that element of society.
My real motivation in writing this, is to just give yet another heads up to anyone planning to do their partying in the Shi-Ta area.
Know this; 45, and Spin are run by the same mob that nealy killed my buddy, and who have similarly hospitalized many other people - often for no discernable reason at all. Stories like mine are legion from that area.
I guess my point is - if you have heard tell that a place is gang controlled, or favored by gangsters in their leisure time, give it a miss. Don’t assume, like I did, that you know the ropes, and wouldn’t make the mistakes that cocky new commers make. Don’t ever assume that you are “down” with gangsters. Don’t assume that being out with a couple of friends insualtes you from this random gangster bullshit. And never assume that you being foreign somehow shields you from hoods and their violent ways.
The history of guys getting beaten and killed in Taipei clubs, more often than not, is about innocent people being victimized by hopped up hoods, trying to be bad ass. Often the fact that you are a foreigner is all the excuse they need.
Is it really worth it?
Sure, the more mellow, upmarket places like Sean’s seem a bit too pre-packaged and tame, but then again, how often do you hear of white collar types being beaten to an inch of death?
Finally, I’d say to anyone, in particular women, be very wary of the cabs that cue up infront of gangster clubs. The cabbies are more often than not “connected”. Always a better idea to use radio dispatch taxis late at night.
Christos’ story is the kind of thing I was talking about when I started this thread. I was talking about predatory violence rather than typical bar fight stuff. There are some serious bad eggs out there in certain bars. If you are in a conflict or are threatened, get out of Dodge. There are many, many stories like Christos’ out there.
I’ve never liked Spin. I can’t stand that slimey asshole KC. I unfortunately had to spend a half hour in his BMW one night with my boyfriend (who avoids him like the plague now) while he and this Kiwi ‘gone native’ jerk went around shooting alley cats with popguns. The mafia RUNS this country, btw. Didn’t you know that? Check the history books. I’m so mad now after reading that story!
There is something to be said for avoiding the drinking lifestyle and bar scene–anywhere. As my dear mother used to say, “don’t put yourself in the ‘position’”…
However, sometimes violence is unavoidable. The only run-in I ever had with it in Taiwan was at my apartment complex. We woke up one morning to the sounds of some HUGE, drunk Taiwanese guy smashing up the lobby with a tire iron. Seems he had a bone to pick with the building owner. When I got home from work that night, all traces of violence were gone. You’d never have known anything happened–very weird. If I were a substance abuser, I would’ve thought the whole thing was a hallucination…
Im a little shocked at reading those accounts of violence that seem to stem from simply talking to Taiwanese girls. Dont get me wrong, i come from the north east of England where its been a pretty sh1t night if there wasnt a scuffle in the kebab shop. But ive been in the far northern reaches of japan for the last year and i love the fact that its so safe up here. Im visiting Taipei at the end of April with a view to moving there in august/september. Naturally i would like to talk to some expats whilst im there, and i guess the only way to do so would be to visit these bars. Also i will be staying with a Taiwanese friend who happens to be a particularly stunning female…im concerned…in england …if im about to be bottled i would usually see it coming. Does any one have any advice with regards to meeting foreigners to chat about general ex pat stuff without having to go to the aforementiooned places.
Another interesting note…we dont seem to have the purely money minded , arrogant tw@ts that are so frequently mentioned here…up here in japan…well, i guess there are some in tokyo maybe its a big city thing. anyway its late and im drunk. I just wonder why these idiots seem to go to taiwan, it kind of makes me want to stay here…in blissful safety.
Thanks for posting that Christos. Very informative and as fine a yarn as I’ve ever heard spun here in Taiwan. I’m not black, so I can’t gauge the anti black sentiment among chinese here. It makes me wonder though … Chinese are famed throughout the world for being astute businessmen … but beating up your customers or letting your friends beat up your customers is pretty dumb.
I have two questions for you, if you wouldn’t mind answering:
Did you or your African friend ever file a complaint with Taipei city police HQ after the incident took place?
And didn’t the hospital staff have to file necessary reports to the police after receiving a patient in his condition?
I’ve never had any problems with Taiwanese guys in pubs - in my experience they usually only attack when provoked. I’m more afraid of the psychotic foreigners in this country. My friend is in the hospital right now with a broken collar bone after being severely beaten by some Western asshole in front of the Roxy last night for no other reason than being a “geek.” He chased him for a block in a half before slamming him into the ground and literally stomping him. I’m not going to any of those Shita pubs for a while.
Call me dance,
Just out of curiosity, are you saying that nobody helped your friend, nobody called the police and that that animal got away with that kind of assault? Your friend should definitely go to the police. They wouldn’t be able to find the guy, but if you knew who it was, they would probably arrest him or make him pay (for that kind of injury, probably around NT$30,000-60,000). Are you sure there isn’t more to the story. That sounds kind of strange. I don’t mean strange that a foreigner (or anyone) would attack someone, but strange that he would do it out of nowhere like that with no conflict to set it up. Well, come to think of it, it wouldn’t surprise me THAT much.
BTW, just to reiterate what was stated earlier in this thread for the benefit of those who do not live in Taipei. This whole violence thing almost exclusively occurs at a few select bars and then only occasionally. I would say that Taiwan is the safest place I have ever lived in general, and there is very little chance of being randomly attacked outside these few select bars. The point I wanted to make clear is that a couple of the problem bars seem like safe neighborhood hangouts, and many people who may have just arrived have no idea that it can turn ugly very quickly.
Of course, you deserve to be assaulted if you are out drinking or dancing late at night. You also deserve to be detained and forced to pee in a cup for such aberrant behaviour. So please, no complaints.
nope. He had to call his own ambulance. He just had surgery yesterday. It was completely unprovoked. They also tried to attack me, but I had some big friends. Of course they turned into little sissies when they were confronted by these guys. Cowards. I even tried to shake hands with them before I realized they had piss beat my friend. We’re looking for em…beware.
Hey, Roxy,
I hope you had your friend file an accident report with the police when he was at the hospital. Once you find the guy who did it, you can usually get that person deported if that guy was a foreignor. Get a lawyer, for Christ’s sake. Usually the foreign culprit won’t want to instantly lose their job, etc., in Taiwan and your friend should be able to get a nice settlement.
P.S. I carry a small thing of blue-inked pepper spray from Watson’s. Even if the guy isn’t fazed by the spray, he is still dyed blue.
There is so much to hate about this place … and to top it … insecure idiots that have no idea how to deal with different races … so lets use our fists (and bottles and ashtrays and what ever) …
I have NEVER “hit on” a local girl or “endangered” a local’s relationship …
What a UNeducated nation - Simply becoz MOST Taiwanese have NO IDEA WHAT SO EVER how to deal with other races/nations - C’mon … look at the house “slaves” - feel rather sorry for them, look at how (or more the way) they handle situations in the working enviroment - NOT ON !! Hhhhmmmm … It’s a pitty how these people think … Culture differences - I know. However, when I had contact with foreigners in my home country they were treated with the UTMOST respect and dignity … no matter what ! Why can’t Taiwanese do that ? Why must you be their work horse … ? Why do they feel so threatened ? Stupid stupid people.
Ps: I know I generalised … but my oh my … that is as a matter of fact how the GENERAL situation is in Taiwan.
There are many great loacals, or so I hear, but in my experience I am still to meet such people bar one.