Taiwan Independence, Reunification, & Self Determination

Politics Taiwan Politics
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Based on recent current events in PRC about Hu JingTao usurping Jiang Jeming for the leadership position of PRC, one can easily conclude that the “peaceful rise” paradigm that Hu proposed a few years ago will have a chance to move forward.

Given the fact that many new treaties have been signed to resolve territorial disputes with neighboring country is also good sign. For example the new treaty, signed in 2000, with Vietnam over control of the Gulf of Tonkin is a good indicator of how the PRC wish to resolve dispute of this nature.

Even with the recent incident where the Chinese naval police had to kill Vietnamese pirates in the Gulf of Tonkin to protect Chinese fishermen the area, shows signs of PRC trying to abide by rule of law and heading in the direction of a peaceful rise.

If PRC was not interested in a peaceful rise with respect to the Strait Issue, why hasn’t a nuclear warhead been pointed at ROC. I think that would clear up any misunderstanding of a peaceful or non-peaceful intentions on PRC part.

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Because a nuclear warhead pointed at Taiwan would incite the ire of the US as well as many in the international community that China needs as friends at the moment. That seems perfectly clear.

And, while I personally think “Peaceful Rising” is a load of BS, it still is a point that the PRC government is going to great efforts to sell to the world…in particular its immediate neighbors. Pointing a nuclear missile at an immediate neighbor would be a bit too obvious.

Don’t get me wrong. I think that if the PRC could get what they want without a war, they would do it. However, I don’t see them getting all they want any time soon. And given the fact that the military imbalance is tipping in China’s favor thanks to neglect of defense by the Taiwan side, there will come a point where the Taiwan fruit will become a bit too tempting.

Long live “Peaceful Rising!” We will see how long the idea lives.

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Having a floating currency system like Japan would also incites the ire of the USA.

I think if one studies history, it was always tipped in the mainland’s favor, they literally have the resources to overwhelm Taiwan. Taiwan is existing on borrow time from the USA after WWII.

“Peaceful rise” does not equate “Limited Sphere of Influence.”

The question remains will Taiwan peacefully accept the mainland’s expanding sphere of influence or incite a war to illustrate their futile rejection.

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Why should Taiwan accept being rule by a country that doesn’t practice democracy, have the rule of law, or respect it’s own citizens human rights AC?

Expanding your influence doesn’t have to include making war on a country that doesn’t threaten anybody else.

Why not have a referendum on the issue first. The question is for the people of Taiwan to decide. China is no different from a stalker, it wants what it sees, so it spares no effort to cliam it.

You talk as if a war with China would be settled in 5 minutes. The problem is what will happen in China if they start a war and don’t succeed. Needless to say, China would need an invasion fleet bigger than what was used for the D Day landings.

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[quote=“ac_dropout”] To understand the desire for this, one only needs to look to how much China spend on defense during the last dynasty prior to the invasion of 8 nations. China for the most part has always practiced diplomacy with neighboring countries; it has been for the most part outside forces trying to invade China for the past few thousand years.
[/quote]

Whic outside forces in the last 500 years apart from Japan have tried to invade China?

Tell Vietnam that China always uses diplomacy. The Chinese got their asses kicked in that little adventure of their southern neighbours as well.

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[quote=“Satellite TV”]Whic outside forces in the last 500 years apart from Japan have tried to invade China?
[/quote]

Russia, Britain, Portugal, Germany, France, the United States, and anyone else who had “concession” territory within China.

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[quote=“cmdjing”][quote=“Satellite TV”]Whic outside forces in the last 500 years apart from Japan have tried to invade China?
[/quote]

Russia, Britain, Portugal, Germany, France, the United States, and anyone else who had “concession” territory within China.[/quote]

Invade is the key word.

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[quote=“Satellite TV”]
Why should Taiwan accept being rule by a country that doesn’t practice democracy, have the rule of law, or respect it’s own citizens human rights AC?[/quote]
No one said anything about accepting rule. I am only suggestion that PRC influence is expanding and ROC should make proper alignments in the foriegn policy in regards to the PRC. Currently ROC foriegn policy is inadequate in dealing with PRC. Putting aside the soveriengty issue of which government control what terrority known as China, you have other issues which are not being dealt with properly. Like ease of the business community to take advantage of PRC rising economy. Or attracting PRC tourist to Taiwan to enhance our economy. Or even getting news directly from the PRC, to understand what they are thinking on the other side of the Strait, to the general populace in ROC.

Yes there are certain paradigms in the Strait Issues that ROC cannot change. But ROC currently has no leverage in the international community to make any unilateral changes in our favor on the issue. PRC on the other hand is gaining more and more leverage to shift the Strait Issue in their favor unilaterally.

It is a reality ROC needs to deal with and deal with in a quick manner, because ROC economy is being dwarfed by PRC economy. At least from my perspective a fundimental for any government to exert its will and make policy become reality begins with the economy.

Simple because the PRC has already defined that move as instigating war. And given their definition of “One China” they could easily hold their own referrendum on the issue. Thereby using a “democratic” tool against us and appease the international community by citing they were only acting in the interest of maintaining the integrity of a “Modern Chinese Nation State.”

[quote=“Satellite TV”]
You talk as if a war with China would be settled in 5 minutes. The problem is what will happen in China if they start a war and don’t succeed. Needless to say, China would need an invasion fleet bigger than what was used for the D Day landings.[/quote]
This is assuming the USA gets involved in the fray. The last time USA stopped an invasion force on behalf of another country was in 1st Gulf War when they stopped Iraq from invading the Kingdom of Saudi Arab.

The Saudi had to pay the USA 50 billion dollars. A relatively debtless nation became over night a country realing in debt from that excursion to this day.

ROC is not even close to Saudi in liquid assests (no pun intended) and our credit rating has recently been down graded by Bear Stern.

PRC on the other has engaged our stauchest allie on the economic front. They are the 2nd largest foriegn USA bond holder and may overtake Japan within a matter of years. They are the engine of growth to the world economy. They’ve suceeded in starting a manned space program. They’ve got laborers to feed any industrial project, even a war program. Their leadership seems to be focus primarily on the developement and advancement of the people.

Don’t get me wrong I like a good tussle just like the next guy. But the chips are stacked against us in a direct confrontation with the PRC.

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[quote=“Satellite TV”]
Invade is the key word.[/quote]

You are quite dense aren’t you?

Russia, Britain, Germany, France, and the United States have all at one point or another in recent history used military force to press for advantages within China (sans Portugal). The Boxer Rebellion, the Opium Wars, the Taiping Rebellion? Ringing any bells here?

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[quote=“cmdjing”][quote=“Satellite TV”]
Invade is the key word.[/quote]

You are quite dense aren’t you?

Russia, Britain, Germany, France, and the United States have all at one point or another in recent history used military force to press for advantages within China (sans Portugal). The Boxer Rebellion, the Opium Wars, the Taiping Rebellion? Ringing any bells here?[/quote]

NOT MANY

1840: Rear Admiral George Elliot sets sail with 16 British warships to demand a lifting of the ban on opium. No agreement is reached.
1841: Elliot’s forces attack Canton and hold it for ransom for $6,000,000. The Cantonese counterattack and kick off the First Opium War.
1842: Henry Pottinger, Elliot’s successor, takes Nanking and forces the Treaty of Nanking, with China giving up concession after concession to British trade. Antiforeign sentiment grows.

INVASION… YES

1851: Hung Hsiu-ch’uan fails his civil service examination, goes into a trance and discovers that he is the Son of God. He declares the T’ai-p’ing T’ien-kuo, the Heavenly Kingdom of Great Peace, and kicks off the Taiping rebellion, the bloodiest civil war in history.

NOTHING TO DO WITH A FOREIGN INVASION

1856-1858: A British-registered ship, the Arrow, is seized and its Chinese crew charged with smuggling. A joint force of British and French led by Lord Elgin is sent to occupy Canton, beginning the Arrow War. In 1857, the Anglo-French forces occupy Canton; the next year, they march on Tientsin. Four Tientsin treaties are signed, establishing foreign diplomats in Peking and freedom of movement for Christian missionaries.

1859-1860: The Western signatories to the Tientsin treaties show up to get their treaties signed, but are repulsed by the guns at Ta-ku fort. In 1860, allied forces march on Peking. In response to the torture and execution of several emissaries, Lord Elgin orders the destruction of the Summer Palace.

AGAIN AN INVASION BUT NOT TO OVERTHROW THE GOVERMENT

1894: Japanese Navy clashes with a Chinese fleet over issues of Korean independence, starting the Sino-Japanese War.

WILL CHINA AGAIN STOP THOSE WHO WANT INDEPENDENCE FROM SO DOING?

1896-1898: Bands of I-ho ch’uan (Righteous and Harmonious Fists), or Boxers, stir up anti-Christian hysteria and begin the Boxer Rebellion.

AGAIN NOT A FORIEGN INVASION

1898: Kuang-hsu emperor initiates the Hundred Days of Reform, a series of radical reform decrees. The empress dowager Tz’u-hsi puts the stop to that, has the Emperor detained, and takes over the reins of government.
1900: The Boxers beseige the foreign legation quarter in Peking. Empress dowager Tz’u-hsi declares open war and calls on all Chinese to attack foreigners. The rebellion is put down by an expedition of the foreign powers.

A REBELLION AND AN ATTACK ON FOREIGNERS WHO WERE THEN DEFENDED BY THEIR OWN GOVENMENTS. NOT AN INVASION IMHO

1908: Tz’u-hsi and the Emperor die, and the Hsuan-t’ung emperor is crowned. His father, the Prince Chun, becomes regent and initiates a series of reforms.

1911: Chinese Revolution. Yuan Shih-k’ai is recalled from retirement to take command of army to put down the revolution. He negotiates with the revolutionaries, with the hope of being instituted as the head of a new government, but is disappointed when Sun Yat-sen is appointed president of the new republic.

1937-1945: Sino-Japanese War YES THE JAPANESE INVADED

1945: Civil war begins, Nationalists vs. Communists.

1949: People’s Republic of China established with the victory of the Communists.

1966-1976: Cultural Revolution This ten year period probably eclipses all the other above events put together. The only reason it’s not covered as much is beacuse they can’t go around blaming it on outsiders. Better to kill your own than have others do it for you.

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So when is an invasion not an invasion?

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Only when you lose lol…

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So we agree that for the most part of Chinese history starting with the Great Wall Defense, China has been fending off invaders and not the other way around.

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No, I’m sure it goes both ways and China has its fair share of military aggression in history. I don’t see how this whole tangent has to do with the topic though

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Lets se now, didn’t the Han also invade China AC? But we’re off topic now. Why not let Taiwan have the choice of succession. Are the Chinese so afraid that they are not so well loved by all of these 23 million people they claim clambour to re-join with the motherland?

Look at t Quebec, they tried to succeed but failed at the ballot box. Of course China wouldn’t like that now would they? How dare people actually vote with their conscience instead of voting the one party line.

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For most of the past 1,000 years, China has been ruled by foreigners. The Yuan and the Ching were both foreign dynasties, were they not? :slight_smile:

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Yuan yes. Qing is actually very much debateable leaning towards no.

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The Qing were Manchurian for Christ’s sake. Some bloody people…

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You really are a master at oversimplification, aren’t you. The two are not mutually exclusive.

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Narrow point, but it would be far more exact to say that the Qing dynasty, while foreign at the outset were sinicized. Success of the Qing rested on their adoption of the local practices (Confucian philosophy and the civil service system), cultures and practices. See the reign of the emperors Kangxi, Yongzheng and Qianlong. “Chinese” arts, culture, history, flourished under their rule. Most people nowadays referring to “Chinese history” would be talking about this era. Not the Ming, Yuan, Song or any other forgotten dynasty.

Ok, back to your regularly scheduled flame-fests.