Taiwan Referendum

Thats a fine and fair assesmennt, Paogao. Now, not having bothered to delve much into local politics myself, I’d still venture to say that giving up on the DPP is premature.

On independence Chen and his government are not so inept as to go all the way on the issue without consensus. Should I be incorrect, then I shall be so bold as to predict that neither the legislature nor a referendum will let them should they try to Hancock or nail, Luther style, independence to the door.

On the DPP’s percieved lack of leadership their own failings should not be a key deciding factor to one’s vote given the partisan squabbling, fisticuffing, rumormongering nature of the islands political arena. Rather it seems a lack of experience, mistrust, fear, and greed that inhibits this “newbie party” from effectivly governing.

In my view the Taiwanese people owe it to themselves to give the democratic process a chance to cure Taiiwan’s ills by affording the DPP the opportunity to mature in government and time for pluralism and consensus to grow, no matter how painful the process.

Reverting to an old party now, replete with its corruption, fading fantasies of empire and glory, repressive past, and dubious moal character will not, as you admit, result in the politcal crisis of “handing Taiwan to China on a plate.” Voting them in on the basis that “they could do no worse,” is not only replusive, but a copout to Taiwan’s democratic maturity. Have some balls Taiwan. Onward Ho!

Chou

Chen is like a salesman
Lien, not much more presidential looking but more of a leader.

I wouldn’t be willing to give Chen another shot. If he makes it we will certainly be economically down the crapper in another 2 years max.

But then I could be wrong. Give the squinty eyed fella that can’t speak Chinese correctly another shot then.

James soong… A man of high stature. He ran the GIO during one of the more repressive chapters of the island’s history.

Lian Zhan, doesn’t give a rats ass about this place and has not yet to come up with one idea during his 30+ years of “public” service.

Nuff said.

Because they are two tired old men looking for a legacy. They won’t sell the store - but will put in place a framework that makes Taiwan’s defacto independence impossible to maintain. Future PRC history books will very kind to both of them.

Ok, you’ve convinced me. Go get 'em, Tiger!

Have fun.

Really, lets get over oursleves… do any of us really know about Taiwan politics? SOme here claim to… and it is pretty funny reading for most of the time. The ‘old China/Taiwan hand’ syndrome. You sould all work for your respective embassies if you dont already, the superiority complexes are quite something.

My main issue is with independence, I just cant fathom how after all this time people think the KMT will do anything to advance the issue. Sure the DPP are inexperienced shit stirrers, but surely some sort of bruhaha is better than nothing. I love to see passion and I dont care what side of the political fence you sit - as long as you have passion - and seeing Taiwan involved in political debate rather than cowering acceptance is a good thing.

I must say I am shocked the Paogao is comtemplating voting for Lien/Soong… very interesting indeed.

[quote=“Poagao”]
I don’t see how they could be much worse. Politicians aren’t as clearly divided into the “good/evil” categories as most people on this board like to think. I might end up voting for Lien/Soong. Despite my misgivings about their personal moral characters, at least they know how to lead. Foreigners often seem to wonder how Taiwanese people can tolerate Soong even with the allegations of corruption. The answer is that most people realize that you have to be corrupt to gain any amount of success in politics here, so they vote for who they see as the most effective leader. Chen got lucky when Lien split the vote last time. Perhaps he’ll get lucky again. It won’t be because of his record that he’ll get reelected, though, it will be in spite of it. Most foreigners and ABCs (well, I should just say most foreigners, as ABCs are just as foreign as most foreigners) tend to see the KMT as selling out to China. This is the whole “Why do you hate America so much?” argument, i.e., if you don’t advocate my particular set of tactics to solve the problem, you must be working with the enemy. People assume that Lian and Song are going to hand Taiwan over to China on a platter, but why would they do that? What’s better, being a local magistrate of a Chinese province, at the beck and call of Beijing, or being the President of the ROC? No, because they don’t advocate a public declaration of independence (which wouldn’t do anyone any good, let’s be honest), they’re automatically relegated to “working with the enemy” status.

That’s my honest answer to your question, but since I know that most of the people in this forum think of the KMT as the Ultimate Evil and ready to sell out to China (“My girlfriend said so, dammit!”), while the DPP is full of repressed freedom fighters, I’ll just save you all the trouble and change my answer to:

Of course not! What was I thinking? Four more years for Chen and Lu then. I’m sure they’ll turn things around. Go get 'em, tiger![/quote]

Amen! You echoed my sentiments exactly. Glad to see I’m not the only one who thinks this way! :smiley:

In my experience, if you pay attention to the news etc, you’ll have more knowledge of Taiwanese politics than the average Taiwanese person. Most people (probably in many countries) are not that well-informed about politics. But I’m not claiming that for myself.

Brian

[quote=“AWOL”]I love to see passion and I don’t care what side of the political fence you sit - as long as you have passion - and seeing Taiwan involved in political debate rather than cowering acceptance is a good thing.

I must say I am shocked the Poagao is comtemplating voting for Lien/Soong… very interesting indeed.[/quote]

So you think KMT=cowering acceptance and DPP=passionate political debate? Otherwise why would you be shocked?

Poagao,

No I dont see it that way.

I have a few friends and family members whose relatives were either jailed or killed under the KMT govt. As such I can honestly see why they feel a ‘link’ to the DPP. However, as a westerner from a democratic environment I will never truly appreciate how Taiwanese arrange their political thoughts.

I like the ‘idea’ of the DPP, and, as you said, have a few major moral issues with the likes of Soong, but I sure as hell do not profess to understanding Taiwan politics.

[quote=“Poagao”][quote=“AWOL”]I love to see passion and I don’t care what side of the political fence you sit - as long as you have passion - and seeing Taiwan involved in political debate rather than cowering acceptance is a good thing.

I must say I am shocked the Poagao is comtemplating voting for Lien/Soong… very interesting indeed.[/quote]

So you think KMT=cowering acceptance and DPP=passionate political debate? Otherwise why would you be shocked?[/quote]

Easy boyz. It looks like two seperate thoughts here. And, you are both putting words, or assuming values, in/for other peoples heads. Why shocked Awol and why the quick equation Poagao? Sound’s like name calling. Lets not confuse these email like quick posts with a well thought out essay.

Everybody’s got issues. And here the issue is mixed up in the referendum (Cross Straight Relationships), leadership abilities, and the future of Taiwan. Understanding the broad perspectives of the major palyers is easy. You need not be Taiwanese for that. Advocating a particular path is as difficult for immigrants (that’s us) as choosing a path is for the Taiwanese.

Whether the choice is Old School or New School remains to be seen, thus the debate. So lets get back to it.

What else in terms of economic, social, international, polices can you put forth on either side. Thiese things I do not much about, and I would appreciate your accumlated knowledge. All other forumosans too, especially in light of the ultimate meaning annd value of this referendum.

Chou

As I see it, the so-called defensive referendum is an absurd and pointless exercise. It is also a waste of a very large sum of public funds, which is all the harder to justify given the current state of government finances.

I believe that it is the biggest mistake of A-bian’s political career. I suspect he knows that very well, but it’s too late for him to back down. It has definitely put paid to whatever chance he might otherwise have had of winning the election. Some of his recent pronouncements (words of bravado about the loss of the presidency being a price he’s prepared to pay for having the referendum go ahead) suggest that he realizes the consequences of his stand on this issue.

Before this referendum business came as such a gift to the pan-blue camp, the DPP’s election campaign was going very well. By focusing on the most manifest weaknesses of Lien, Soong and the KMT (ill-gotten wealth, dishonesty, corruption, etc.), they had given Chen a very real chance of pulling off a narrow win, in spite of his unfortunate choice of running-mate and the several percentage points of votes forfeited thereby (any of the other potential VP candidates would have been preferable and would have increased the Chen ticket’s tally of votes). But now he has diverted attention to a sure vote-losing issue and given the KMT and PFP a wealth of ammunition with which to attack and discredit him. It will certainly lose him far more votes from swing voters than it will gain, and that will be absolutely fatal to his chances of success. Instead of a close contest hanging in the balance and decided either way by a tiny percentage of votes, he now faces certain defeat by a substantial margin of between five and ten percentage points.

And could it possibly be worth sacrificing his chance of re-election to have this referendum take place? Definitely not! It won’t have the slightest positive effect on Beijing’s attitude or actions, and it won’t draw the world’s attention to honest little Taiwan’s valiant cause, because the world will remain all but oblivious to it – a few academics and Taiwan-watchers may take note of it, but it will hardly warrant a mention in the international media, and very few people outside Taiwan will care to know anything about it.

I am very sorry about this state of affairs. Although I do not have a high opinion of A-bian’s abilities as president, and am appalled at the thought of the current VP remaining in the presidential office for another four years, I do think that the DPP administration deserves to be given another four years to carry through their policies and reforms. While they started out badly, largely through want of experience, they have managed to put some very capable people into key positions, and are slowly beginning to get more and more things right.

As Lee Yuan-tseh has said, Taiwan’s biggest problem is the Legislative Yuan, which is dragging the country down. Reform of the legislature is more vital than anything else. I am confident that, if Chen won a second term, the pan-blue camp would not dare to oppose such reform for fear of what would happen to them in the next legislative elections if they did. But if the pan-blues win, as they surely will, I do not expect to see any but the most superficial reforms enacted, and certainly not a solution to the main cause of Taiwan’s worst ills.

After Chen loses this election, I hope he will keep his word and retire from politics, so that more capable people – like Frank Hsieh and Su Chen-chang – will be able to take over the leadership of the DPP and give us hope that something better may lie ahead for Taiwan in 2008.

Su Zhen-chang? You mean Taipei County Magistrate Su Zhen-chang? Taking into consideration the sorry state of Taipei County after 5 years under his administration (and more under other DPP administration), I’m not sure I’d want this guy in charge of much of anything.

I certainly hope then that Chen does not lose this election, and legislative reform be lost.

Clearly then the track would be to not devote much effort into promoting the referndum and to switch campaign focus back to more positive issues. Unfortuantley DPP will be playing defense to election time as the referendum issue plays out.

Getting the Chen relected then is my issue, and for my peronal campaigning knowing the platforms on each side is key. Suspend here, then, the broader issues if you will, including legislative reform. Then what national and social issue consumes the Taiwanese the most? Which side offers the best solution?

Chou

[quote=“Bassman”]Chen is like a salesman
Lien, not much more presidential looking but more of a leader.[/quote]
What leadership has Lien Chan shown? He’s been in leadership positions, certainly. But what has he done in them, other than oppose the DPP in virtually everything?

Also, in a poll I put up some time ago, far more people believed that Soong, not Lien, would be the person with real power if Lien were elected. While I understand that the numbers don’t count for anything, those sentiments are also strong in Taiwan’s society. How can someone seen as significantly weaker than his own VP candidate be seen as a leader?

My part of Taipei County (Xindian) has seen a lot of significant improvements under Su’s earnest and capable stewardship. I’m very well impressed by the man, and like his character and style a lot.

[quote=“Omniloquacious”]My part of Taipei County (Xindian) has seen a lot of significant improvements under Su’s earnest and capable stewardship. I’m very well impressed by the man, and like his character and style a lot.[/quote]Have you tried getting a 3 year ARC lately ?

What leadership has Lien Chan shown? He’s been in leadership positions, certainly. But what has he done in them, other than oppose the DPP in virtually everything?[/quote]

The poor man definitely doesn’t have much in the way of leadership qualities. He lacks any kind of inspiring vision or guiding ideals, is as dry as dust, and doesn’t possess an iota of charisma.

It’s positively painful watching him trying to whip up the crowds at election rallies (“Blah blah, vapid monotous carping, blah blah. Dui bu dui? Ni shuo dui bu dui?”).

I’ve never got one and never tried. I get only one year at a time. And I haven’t applied for permanent residency because getting the documentation together is far too much of a hassle.

But I wouldn’t blame any of the shortcomings of the visa and residency system on Su or any other local government leader. The responsibility for that belongs to the Ministry of the Interior and the Legislative Yuan.

My part of Taipei County (Xindian) has seen a lot of significant improvements under Su’s earnest and capable stewardship.[/quote]

With the exception of the MRT, what are the significant improvements? I personally think Xindian is probably the best part of Taipei County, part of why I chose to live here. That and cheap rents, but that’s another thread. I recall Xindian being pretty much the same five years ago as it is today, though. Taipei city seems to have improved a lot more during the same time.