A nice Christmas present. They have been up-graded to current standards.
(inside joke is that these 4 are referred to as - “Ayatollah Class” ships)
[quote]Taiwan Set For Delivery Of Two US-Built Kidd-Class Destroyers
Taipei (AFP) Dec 06, 2005
The first two of four Kidd-class destroyers sold to Taiwan by the United States are due to arrive at the weekend, bolstering the navy’s defense capabilities against rival China, a navy spokesman said Tuesday.
The two destroyers, which were first refitted for Taiwan’s use at a US naval shipyard, were scheduled to arrive Saturday at the Suao naval base in the island’s northeast, naval lieutenant-commander Wu Chih-chieh told AFP.
A formal commissioning ceremony has been set for mid-December, he said, adding that Taiwan would take delivery of the remaining two destroyers in 2006.
The four Kidd-class destroyers, originally built for the Shah of Iran, were commissioned in the US navy following the Iranian revolution in 1979. They were decommissioned from the US navy in the late 1990s.
Taiwan’s navy has said its combat capabilities will be greatly improved thanks to the four 9,600-tonne destroyers, sold to Taiwan as part of an arms package approved by US President George W. Bush in April 2002.
The deal infuriated China, which opposes any arms sales to the island it considers to be part of its territory since the two split in 1949 at the end of a civil war.(excert from article) spacewar.com/news/taiwan-05zn.html[/quote]
[quote]The enlargement and modernization of the Chinese fleet will inevitably alarm the surrounding countries and other regional powers (such as India and Australia) and will oblige other states to renew their surface and submarine forces. However, it appears unlikely that P.L.A.N. can, or will, become a force with global projection (notably far behind the U.S. Navy’s capabilities, or those of the Soviet Navy during the 1980s) in the next decade. pinr.com/report.php?ac=view_ … guage_id=1[/quote]
Thanks for that article, plotch - it’s a good read. Well, I’m glad that the PRC’s capabilities, according to the article, will not even come close the the USA’s. For all America’s real and purported “evil acts” in the world, one has to admit that without the policing role of the USA, the world would be far more despotic than it is.
Also, does anyone else see the parallels between the situation of Japan in the first half of the 20th century, and China’s current situation?
The Kidd class are quite capable - they are not “dumped” weapons. They are particularly good for confused electronic environments with lots of clutter - even better some say than the Aegis due to the fact that they use traditional radars as opposed to a phased array.
It’s not the ships it’s the type of sonars they are hauling that have been causing serious harm to cetaceans. Now that they can not use the LFAS in US waters anymore, why not sell them to Taiwan? That might not be the motivation behind it all, but it shouldn’t be overlooked. What do they do with all of those LFAS now? SELL!!
“Under the terms of the agreement, the Navy will limit use of the new sonar system to specific areas along the eastern seaboard of Asia (around North Korea and China), including portions of the Sea of Japan, the East and South China Seas, and the Philippine Sea. The agreement does not allow LFA sonar in the waters off the Hawaiian Islands, where the Navy had been permitted to use the system this year. In addition to geographical limits, the Navy agreed to certain seasonal exclusions, which conservationists believe will protect critical whale migrations, and to coastal exclusions ranging from 30 to 60 nautical miles. None of the limits apply during war or heightened threat conditions.”
Question: How far from China’s shores does it claim is its own? Was it still 100 NM? I mean seriously, wouldn’t that overtake some North Korean shores and make thin some South Korean ones? Wouldn’t that partially envelope Taiwan?
I thought the standard was 10 NM. Why do they get special treatment?
It’s not really upgraded, it’s mid-frequency rather than low frequency. The point is that they are both active sonars. Enough research has been done to prove that active sonars hurt and can even cause death for cetaceans (and God knows what else!). There has been a series of unusual strandings in Taiwan this and last year, not proven to be related, but coincidental with military exercises in the area.
There isn’t really much of a dispute about that. If anyone comes across any articles or information regarding military exercises in the area, I would really appreciate it if you could PM me. Monitoring papers for notice of exercises could be a way that you could help save cetaceans from the bone shattering sounds of sonar and other underwater disturbances.
Ok, so you’re not talking about ‘weapons’ and the sonar isn’t really ‘banned’ anyway – rather, the Navy has agreed to some limitations on its use during low threat time periods. A clearer original post would not have drawn my “silly” reaction.
I guess, but that’s not how I would say it. I find that nowadays we tend to down play our words and actions so it doesn’t ‘hurt’ so much. Banned, according to Merriam-websters online dictionary means “to prohibit especially by legal means.” Or “to prohibit the use, performance, or distribution of.” They Navy didn’t agree, they were banned. The ruling came from a judge due to violations of several environmental laws.
Sorry Shrimpcrackers I didn’t mean to ignore your last post. The limited area completely engulfs Taiwan, that is a part of the cause of alarm amongst marine conservationists. The other part of the alarm is that the countries where these sonars are being used usually have several recognized experts that monitor. Some even have sonar experts working full time on monitoring the impacts, but Taiwan doesn’t. Taiwan has no experts regarding this issue, and no monitors regarding this issue either. It’s careless and dangerous of both sides to toy with nature this way. It’s also extremely cruel. If you could see the insides of these animals - mushy/bubbly/ broken/smashed -Bleeding from every orfice they have. It’s really no joke. It gives them a really bad case of the bends (something divers get from surfacing too fast) and basically breaks their face/ear bones.
These sonars can travel incredible distances, so if X Navy is testing in or even near Taiwanese waters, it’s possible we could have several ‘coincidental’ strandings. There were 28 strandings through the middle of July beginning of August this year. The Taiwanese Navy (until these destroyers are deployed) doesn’t have the capability, but the Phillipines and US Navy were also testing from Guam to Okinawa around that time. Earlier on in the month of July the Chinese Navy also did a scale of exercises. There is no reason not to have someone or a NGO do a full scale impact assessment.
Anyhow, I didn’t post to ‘bum out’ your thread. I just thought if the topic is being brought up, someone should speak up for the dolphin and whales. (and I imagine hundreds of fish and hopefully no divers !!)
The US Navy is looking for human volunteers to test ranges, if anyone is interested… :loco: .hee hee…kidding
Back On Topic -
Has anyone seen the new destroyer in dock here on the island?
I believe one was scheduled to come in around the middle/end of Dec 2005.
[quote=“TainanCowboy”]Back On Topic -
Has anyone seen the new destroyer in dock here on the island?
I believe one was scheduled to come in around the middle/end of Dec 2005.[/quote]
Sources tell me that it has not tied up yet because the MoD is just getting started building the berth for it. They wanted to wait until it arrived before they started building. You know, they wanted to make sure they could measure it themselves first to make sure they got everything right. It’s presently at anchor off Kenting right next to half a dozen dormitory boats for mainland fishermen.
Are they going to tow them behind something as unmanned targets or let the Chinese have live practise.
I’d be spending exactly the same budget on defensive missile delivery systems to take out their targets. Land based systems and very small mobile platforms.
Anything but providing things to aim their missiles at.
[quote]Elegua wrote:
The Kidd class are quite capable - they are not “dumped” weapons. They are particularly good for confused electronic environments with lots of clutter - even better some say than the Aegis due to the fact that they use traditional radars as opposed to a phased array.
Why is traditional radar better than phased array? And if so, why doesn’t the USA upgrade the Aegis? Why would the Aegis required phased array?[/quote]
Whether it is better or not depends upon what you want to “do” with it. Phased arrays are lots of little antenna that are electronically steered. It’s great if you’re in the N. Atlantic waiting for lots of missles to be launched at you and you need to track lots of small incoming targets and lots of outgoing missles. Think of lots of little delicate fingers. It does require very complex fire control and EW management. A traditional array is one big powerful antenna that is moved around. It is brute force and ignorance and can power it’s way through clutter to resolve on the targer. Think of a big thumb. If your facing an environment like Taiwan with lots of radars in close proximity, lots of low outlying islands, a big thumb can be useful.
The biggest problem for the Kidd’s is that the number of targets that they can engage at any one time is much less than an Aegis.
But any big asset like the Kidd will just become a missle magnet unless it is deployed properly.
JT -
Kidd class destroyers have a draft of, if I remember correctly, around 31.5 feet.
I also seem to remember that this little fact is the cause of great concern. “OOOPS ! You need HOW DEEP for this thing to dock?”
I think this is why it is anchored off-shore at this time.
, nothing like dumping old banned weapons on Taiwan. Not like Taiwan doesn’t have enough issues, especially marine issues of it’s own. 
What’s so silly about that?
Sorry Shrimpcrackers I didn’t mean to ignore your last post. The limited area completely engulfs Taiwan, that is a part of the cause of alarm amongst marine conservationists. The other part of the alarm is that the countries where these sonars are being used usually have several recognized experts that monitor. Some even have sonar experts working full time on monitoring the impacts, but Taiwan doesn’t. Taiwan has no experts regarding this issue, and no monitors regarding this issue either. It’s careless and dangerous of both sides to toy with nature this way. It’s also extremely cruel. If you could see the insides of these animals 
- mushy/bubbly/ broken/smashed -Bleeding from every orfice they have. It’s really no joke. It gives them a really bad case of the bends (something divers get from surfacing too fast) and basically breaks their face/ear bones.
!!)