That is very interesting, Chris. I’d love to see that article if you manage to dig it up. When I said “nobody” that was hyperbole, of course, but I did believe that it was restricted to some officials, translators and members of the educated classes.
I may have to wait until I return to Taiwan in June to dig through my translation archives. I’m having a bear of a time finding it online.
lol, true, they think they’re the center of the universe.
(I’m not from Paris but from Normandy. Advice, if you happen to visit France, don’t spend to much time in Paris, it’s way overrated, countryside is much better 
)[/quote]
Thats what they say ! I did enjoy my 48 hours in Paris , even though I stepped in doggie doo doo no less then six times as I was busy looking at all the sights, plus I nearly got run over trying to get to the center of the ARc d’triomphe ( i didnt know theres a pedestrian tunnel) 
Sadly, I’ve noticed that. So much for my private cheapy LE… :s
[quote=“JFP”]I agree, it’s also hurting my ears each time I hear it. I also hate taiwanese accent when they speak Mandarin (‘‘s’’ instead of ‘‘sh’’, etc…)
Therefore, I will never date a girl who speaks taiwanese. Hearing taiwanese accent is a complete turn off for me.
‘‘ze zong seng u pian hen hao ci!’’ (這種生魚片很好吃) 討厭! :fume:[/quote]
There’s that…
But I like accents. Kind of like how I like it when Taiwanese speak English in a Taiwanese accent instead of a “learned” American accent, or how I like it when French speak English in a French accent, instead of a faux Yank accent…
[quote=“Northcoast Surfer”]However, if all of you linguists don’t mind indulging me, I have further questions and analysis I would appreciate you answering for me.
- A language gets its name from the region or country it originated from, right? That’s why the following hold true:
In America, they speak English, not American. (origin, England)
In Mexico, they speak Spanish, not Mexican. (origin, Spain)
In Australia, people speak English, not Australian. (origin, England)
In Canada, people speak English and French, not Canadian. (origin, England and France)
In Belgium, people speak Dutch,French, German, not Belgionese. (origin, Holland, France, Germany)
In Cuba, people speak Spanish, not Cuban. (origin, Spain)
In Brazil, people speak Portuguese, not Brazilian. (origin, Portugal)[/quote]
I’m not a linguist, but…
That’s because the English arse raped half the world, and Spanish and French most of the rest. Therefore, English (and Spanish etc) is usually called the language spoken by people in countries far removed from England. The Chinese never fully conquered or brought Taiwan to heel. It stands to reason that whatever language, or mix thereof, they speak here can be called Taiwanese. Even if it originated somewhere else. No arse raping involved, and the language and culture has developed in it’s own right in the last 400 years or so…
Sure. But the Spaniards aren’t too enamored with the Mexican “dialect”, just as the French don’t seem too excited about Quebecan French…
Are you being difficult? 
It may be a slap in the face, but who is the majority? Oh, right. They decide who gets slapped and when. Sh!te, but true…
It does. I agree. But the Kejiaren are a minority, not unlike the Aborigines, of which my son and wife (Bunnan) hail from. The Majority, their rules and law, and their cultural history, make things as they are. Hence—Taiwanese = Minnan. They do have a Hakka TV channel, though. How many exclusive Aboriginal and Taiwanese TV channels are there?
Whereas I might agree with you, isn’t that what every separatist since Chu Huang Ti has said??
[quote=“Northcoast Surfer”]Final question:
What is the justification that the Chinese Language dialect Minnan be given the title “Taiwanese” over Hakka, Taiwan aboriginal languages, or any other language for that matter, that didn’t originate from the island of Taiwan?[/quote]
In the final analysis, no languages originated from Taiwan. Not even the Aboriginal languages. Even they came from elsewhere. See references to “arse rape” above.
btw, as you mention English - Language originating from Celtic (brought over from tribes that migrated from Europe), Latin (Italy), German (dialects from mostly Saxon and Angle tribes), Swedish/Norwegian/Danish (vikings) and French (Normans), not to mention several loan words from languages all over the world like “typhoon”.
Spanish, Dutch (Afrikaans) etc are all Indo-European languages that could equally be dissected…
Afterall, where does anyone or anything come from? Africa? Some believe so. So is Minnan or even Mandarin are African languages? No, because we have to draw the line somewhere. And, of course, there is the common understanding or accepted version, aka Taiwanese = Minnan/Hoklo.
[quote=“JFP”]you’re right surfer, we shouldn’t call it taiwanese.
Calling Minnan language taiwanese is an insult for the aboriginals, hakka pple and mainlanders.[/quote]
And the Dutch, and possibly even the Spanish… 
100% in agreement.
[quote=“JFP”]As far as I know, English is not R.O.C. or France’s official language.
Fact is many Taiwanese can’t speak properly their own official language (Mandarin), mainly because their Mandarin is being influenced by Minnan (whatever you call it) pronunciation and even grammar (for instance: 我沒有胖!)[/quote]
I dunno, mate. I think you hang out with some strange Taiwanese, or should I say (to fit your billet) Chinese of Taiwan provincial extraction? Either way, I think the Taiwanese I speak to have a much better command of Mandarin than you (or I) will ever have.
[quote=“ironlady”][quote=“JFP”]As far as I know, English is not R.O.C. or France’s official language.
Fact is many Taiwanese can’t speak properly their own official language (Mandarin), mainly because their Mandarin is being influenced by Minnan (whatever you call it) pronunciation and even grammar (for instance: 我沒有胖!)[/quote]
Ah, I’m glad to know who it is who is in charge of determining what is proper Mandarin. May I e-mail you when I have further questions? 
The people in Taiwan who speak Mandarin seem to be able to communicate with each other without any problem. Their Mandarin is not the same as the Mainland standard, but then again American English is not the same as RP. Does that make American English “improper”? (Well, that depends upon whom you ask, of course.)[/quote]
A smiley says a thousand words… :bravo: 
(there’s two thousand)
[quote=“Taffy”][quote=“Deuce Dropper”]What I am gonna say will piss people off, but I don’t care, it is how I feel. I fucking hate the TWese language, and the main reason (aside from the fact it sounds annoying as hell) is because once people get an inkling that I can speak Mandarin they immediately start ‘galigonin’ each other till they’re nauseous. It is Pavlovian at this point, the minute I hear it, I get mad, and if I have to sit through one more meeting with suppliers or one more car drive or meal with the inlaws where everyone has halted their Mandarin to drop TaiYu bombs somebody’s gonna get hurt.
It is fucking rude as hell. Fuck that archaic half-language.[/quote]
That’s such a shame. It’s richer phonologically and lexically, more lyrical, and more interesting than that compromise creole, Mandarin. As HGC says, many people feel more comfortable speaking Taiwanese and will do so all the time if you’re not around, but if people are switching precisely because they know you don’t understand then it’s just plain rude.[/quote]
Awesome cultural and linguistic supremacism here all round. :bravo: A good read of McWhorter’s ‘The Power of Babel: A Natural History of Language’ is highly instructive. The purpose of spoken communication is to actually communicate (it’s not an objet d’ art), all ‘languages’ are essentially dialects, language extinction is almost as common as species extinction (and just as inevitable), societies optimize linguistic use for efficiency of communication, and creoles and pidgins typically represent the most efficient dialects. Languages have to pass efficiency/relevancy test, and natural selection takes place in linguistics just as in biology.
Very good points Fortigurn. Language is primarily for communication and not just an object unto itself.
I do my best .
This article is a little tangential, but I think it has some interesting thoughts on the topic of language preservation:
Listening to (and Saving) the World’s Languages
Very true. My son’s Taiyu teacher was an old woman who was brought in simply because she was old (and could therefore speak Taiyu fluently). Completely unable to run the class without resorting to shouting, no clue about any model of language teaching or teaching anything.
And an impossible task, poor cow - since half the class already spoke the language fluently at home, while the other half knew not a single solitary word.
-
Really how can people learn Taiwanese for just 2 hours a week? We see where that goes with learning English.
-
The way they have tried to get Taiwanese absorbed into society more reminds me of the way US government tried to get Americans to get onto to the metric system. They put metric and the other system side by side. People never looked at the metric conversion on the road signs. They just kept looking at the “miles.” When people hear announcements in Mandarin and Taiwanese and Hakka on the MRT or in banks nobody really pays attention to the Taiwanese and Hakka. Nobody says when they hear the Mandarin announcement: “Oh I do not understand the Mandarin need to hear the other language!” I remember going to the phone company once and when they called up someones number in Mandarin and then Taiwanese, an older woman who most probably spoke 99 percent Taiwanese did not wait for the Taiwanese announcement, she understood the Mandarin announcement perfectly. It is just political to score points with the different ethnic groups. But like the metric system in the US the only way to make Taiwanese more commonly used and supercede Mandarin as the common language is not put them side by side. But that is not going to happen.
-
I do not care for the those who use Taiwanese as a way to show that if you do not speak it you do not love Taiwan. I remember a woman who used to cut my hair told me that she was on a bus down south talking to her daughter in Mandarin and the bus driver cut in on their conversation and said she should be speaking Taiwanese if she really loves Taiwan. She was actually Hakka and not Minnan. But who cares? It is one reason I do not really care to learn it.
-
It is true that the KMT did things to forbid the use of the language and was not right. But what are you going to do now? It really cannot be changed. It is not a completely dying language and but it is secondary to Mandarin in education. This is just a fact.
In some regards wouldn’t almost all non Mandarin and Cantonese Chinese dialects be dying languages? It won’t be a dead language for a long time (if ever). But if you measured the level of fluency of the general population I can’t see how it wouldn’t be decreasing with every subsequent generation of children. If a person came back in 50 yrs I think they would find a very low level of fluency of the Taiwanese/Minnanese language in Taiwan. And I would imagine that the same is happening in China although I don’t know as much about that. just my two cents.
In 1895, George Leslie Mackay remarked in his book From Far Formosa that the Hakka made up about 5% of Taiwan’s population. He predicted that in a few generations the Hakka would be an extinct minority in Taiwan. Now, in 2010, the Hakka still make up about 5% of Taiwan’s population, and most of them, as I understand it, still proudly speak Hakka.
Really? I was under the impression it’s closer to dying out than taiyu even.
The EY’s Hakka Commission says that the Hakka population is somewhere between 13% and 25%. I also am under the impression that Hakka is far more endangered than Taiwanese. I wouldn’t be surprised if more ethnic Hakka can speak Taiwanese better than they can speak Hakka. Of course in rural areas of Hsinchu or Kaohsiung County it is still widely spoken by people over 40.
The EY’s Hakka Commission says that the Hakka population is somewhere between 13% and 25%. I also am under the impression that Hakka is far more endangered than Taiwanese. I wouldn’t be surprised if more ethnic Hakka can speak Taiwanese better than they can speak Hakka. Of course in rural areas of Hsinchu or Kaohsiung County it is still widely spoken by people over 40.[/quote]
Every young Hakka I’ve met (and I’ve met quite a few in my line of work), when I’ve asked them if they speak Hakka, has responded in the affirmative.
In any case, it’s sufficiently widely spoken that I hear it every day on the MRT announcements.
[quote=“Chris”]In 1895, George Leslie Mackay remarked in his book From Far Formosa that the Hakka made up about 5% of Taiwan’s population. He predicted that in a few generations the Hakka would be an extinct minority in Taiwan. Now, in 2010, the Hakka still make up about 5% of Taiwan’s population, and most of them, as I understand it, still proudly speak Hakka.[/quote]My family does, and grandma and grandpa made it clear to me when I first joined the family that I would be expected to learn it and speak it at family gatherings. Proud Hakka family.
From what I have seen among my Hakka friends is that they speak among their own group or people but when a few Hakka people are with others that do not speak the language they speak Mandarin or possibly Taiwanese. Someone told me it is considered impolite to speak Hakka in front of people that do not understand it. I am not sure if that is the case with all Hakka people. On the other hand I find that those who speak Minnan will speak it in front of you whether you understand it or not.
Im not sure thats all true. I spent some time in Hsinchu and those people went on and on in hakka.
But yes Taiwanese really prefer to speak taiwanese unless they are of the younger set, then they hardly speak taiwanese at all (at least up here in the north).
Basically those that speak it daily prefer to keep speaking it.
My experience is that this only seems the case in Taipei and nearby areas. Everywhere else, everyone seems to prefer Taiwanese and some don’t even have good Mandarin (although not young people). However, I’m not as well-travelled as some admittedly, but I’ve heard v little Mandarin on the street outside of Taipei.
Chinese (Mandarin) is more often than not referred to as 國語 (even on school text books) or 華語, 中文being used more specifically to refer to the written language. 台語 is very aptly used for Taiwanese.
But that’s all besides the point (OT), the question is whether Taiwanese is in danger of dying out. Personally, I think less and less people may speak it as a first language, but I think there will always be a group (even if it’s a minority group) that will speak Taiwanese at home.