Waishengren 外省人 = Mainlanders who moved to Taiwan after the ROC civil war…for whomever was asking in earlier posts.
During the Han Dynasty, the Chinese language began splitting into northern and southern dialects, and during the following centuries of disunity, the southern dialect became the language of the southern kingdoms and empires.
The northern dialect eventually became Middle Chinese (spoken in the Tang and Song Dynasties), the ancestor of Mandarin and Cantonese. During the Song Dynasty there were large scale immigrations to the southern coast, and many features of Middle Chinese are preserved in Cantonese. Mandarin developed under the influence of northern invaders like the Mongols and Manchus, evolving much more quickly. Mandarin is the dialect that preserves the fewest features of old Chinese.
The southern dialect became the ancestor of the Min (Fujian) and Wu (Shanghai/Zhejiang) languages. They both preserve older features of Chinese.
Thank you everyone for your informative responses. I really appreciate it. So, you are talking about the Chinese dialect of Minnan when you say “Taiwanese”. Got it.
However, if all of you linguists don’t mind indulging me, I have further questions and analysis I would appreciate you answering for me.
- A language gets its name from the region or country it originated from, right? That’s why the following hold true:
In America, they speak English, not American. (origin, England)
In Mexico, they speak Spanish, not Mexican. (origin, Spain)
In Australia, people speak English, not Australian. (origin, England)
In Canada, people speak English and French, not Canadian. (origin, England and France)
In Belgium, people speak Dutch,French, German, not Belgionese. (origin, Holland, France, Germany)
In Cuba, people speak Spanish, not Cuban. (origin, Spain)
In Brazil, people speak Portuguese, not Brazilian. (origin, Portugal)
But in Taiwan, some people speak Minnan (origin, China), and it is called Taiwanese! :loco:
Fancy labels such as American-English, Mexican-Spanish, etc. don’t change the fact that these languages are still named after their country or region of origin. I’ve never heard any of my Mexican friends say that they speak Mexican-Spanish! Further, I’ve never heard anyone refer to Minnan as Taiwan-Minnan, just “Taiwanese”.
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The name of this island is Taiwan. Mandarin originated in China. Hakka originated in China, specifically the Guang-Dong region of China. Minnan originated from China, specifically the Fujian region of China. Therefore, since none of these three languages originated from Taiwan, wouldn’t it be incorrect to refer to any of them as Taiwanese? Isn’t it a slap in the face to the Taiwan aborigines to refer to an invasive, non-Taiwan origin language as “Taiwanese” instead of their languages?
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My wife is ethnically Hakka. Her family’s history on the island of Taiwan can be traced back over 160 years. Why is her ethnic language given second billing to Minnan? Why isn’t Hakka called “Taiwanese”? Why does Minnan get this honor of being considered the language of Taiwan when it has the same roots as Hakka, simply another transplanted language which has its origins in China? Seems extremely unfair.
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Political question. When the DPP were in control of the government, certain individuals really tried to ratchet up the rhetoric regarding the separation of China and Taiwan by using language as an argument. I clearly remember Lee Tung-Wei giving a speech in Minnan Language declaring that he was a Taiwanese, not a Chinese, and he is only truly happy in his heart when he speaks the language of Taiwan, “Taiwanese” (Minnan). To me this seemed like an extremely foolish thing to say because Minan is a Chinese language in origin. So, he appeared to be saying, “I’m not a Mandarin speaking Chinese person, I’m a Minnan speaking Chinese person!” To me it would have made much more sense if he had used an aboriginal language and gave the speech in a true Taiwan origin language whilst proclaiming himself a Taiwanese and not a Chinese!
Final question:
What is the justification that the Chinese Language dialect Minnan be given the title “Taiwanese” over Hakka, Taiwan aboriginal languages, or any other language for that matter, that didn’t orginate from the island of Taiwan?
As usual, Mr Surfer, you cast pearls. 
you’re right surfer, we shouldn’t call it taiwanese.
Calling Minnan language taiwanese is an insult for the aboriginals, hakka pple and mainlanders.
Minnan have long been the majority language group here. It’s not surprising at all the language came to be called Taiwanese. The term only came into common usage precisely because speakers of it have long been the majority group. It wasn’t some kind of evil imposition on an unwilling population. There’s a long list of countries that have the same language name as country name. Korean, Japanese, Vietnamese, et al, et al. Now it may have happened but I never heard of another country where minority groups have suggested that the majority group shouldn’t use the name of their country as the language name because it bothers them. People can call their language whatever they like, just as everyone is free to choose their own name. You don’t go telling someone to change their longstanding name because you don’t like it. Making that argument really shows a lot of hubris in my opinion. Don’t use the name if you want but don’t go telling people what to call themselves. It’s not like they pulled the name out of nowhere. It’s 100% logical.
I guess this is due to the way that the KMT defined “Chinese”. Minnan (and Hakka) culture and language is Chinese in origin, but was suppressed in favour of Mandarin and the KMT’s official version of Chinese culture. This meant that Taiwanese Minnan was able to become the basis of a separate Taiwanese identity.
before swine perhaps as the people on taiwan prefer to refer to their minnan hua as Taigu or taiyue in mandarin.
and thats that, good bad or ugly 
and they refer to hakka as kechia hua or kehlang yue in taiwanese
and the aborigini languages collectively as san ti hua (not even referring to the fact that there are several different aborigini languages of taiwan)
nope, not pc but fact though
Thanks god, my girlfriend is a third generation mainlander, when seeing her family, there is no taiwanese language, no taiwanese accent in their mandarin, a real pleasure when chatting 
[quote=“Deuce Dropper”]What I am gonna say will piss people off, but I don’t care, it is how I feel. I fucking hate the TWese language, and the main reason (aside from the fact it sounds annoying as hell) is because once people get an inkling that I can speak Mandarin they immediately start ‘galigonin’ each other till they’re nauseous. It is Pavlovian at this point, the minute I hear it, I get mad, and if I have to sit through one more meeting with suppliers or one more car drive or meal with the inlaws where everyone has halted their Mandarin to drop TaiYu bombs somebody’s gonna get hurt.
It is fucking rude as hell. Fuck that archaic half-language.[/quote]
I agree, it’s also hurting my ears each time I hear it. I also hate taiwanese accent when they speak Mandarin (‘‘s’’ instead of ‘‘sh’’, etc…)
Therefore, I will never date a girl who speaks taiwanese. Hearing taiwanese accent is a complete turn off for me.
‘‘ze zong seng u pian hen hao ci!’’ (這種生魚片很好吃) 討厭! :fume:[/quote]
If hearing “national language” with a Taiwanese accent hurts your ears, I can only imagine the agony it must be for you to listen to the different ways people speak English here.
Thanks god my ears are not that sensitive.
I don’t think Southern Min dialect is under too much pressure in Fujien, and they’re teaching Taiwanese in schools now, so I doubt very much that Taiwanese is dying.
All good questions.
The justification is customary usage. In Chinese, the language is popularly called 台語 in both Mandarin (taiyu) and Taiwanese (taigi/taigu). The English term “Taiwanese” is derived from this term, and likewise through convention has become a standard term referring to this particular dialect.
In contrast to Hokkien, Minnan or Min (the dialect/language subdivisions to which it belongs), Taiwanese, in its various forms, differs somewhat from the mainland Hokkien dialect in vocabulary (including terms borrowed from Japanese), accent, syntax, etc., while remaining mutually intelligible with other forms of Minnan (such as Penang Hokkien).
The Minnan dialect spoken in Taiwan is given the title “Taiwanese” because the number of speakers of this language have for centuries far outnumbered the speakers of Hakka and the Aboriginal languages.
The Aboriginal languages are classified by linguists as Formosan, rather than Taiwanese.
I wrote a long reply to the “why is it called Taiwanese?” question, but Tempo Gain and Chris said it all much more succinctly. I would add though that the name “Taiwanese” became common during the Japanese administration, and was used by the Japanese themselves to identify the Hoklo/Taiwanese Minnan language. Others have argued that the Taiwanese identity (as distinct from a Chinese one) was also forged in the Japanese colonial fires.
Or indeed, how some French people speak English. Merde!
From what I have read, the PRC authorities have been much more zealous about suppression of Minnan there, and it is waning faster there than here. I’m planning to head over there later in the year to take a look for myself. Also, the Taiwanese “lessons” in schools are a joke, in my opinion. Two hours a week of recite-after-me, with teachers who can’t read the textbooks.
As far as I know, English is not R.O.C. or France’s official language.
Fact is many Taiwanese can’t speak properly their own official language (Mandarin), mainly because their mandarin is being influenced by Minnan (whatever you call it) pronunciation and even grammar (for instance: 我沒有胖!)
Yes. Before the Japanese occupation, the language was commonly called the “Amoy dialect” by 19th century English-speaking writers.
[quote=“JFP”][quote=“Taffy”]
Or indeed, how some French people speak English. Merde!
[/quote]
As far as I know, English is not R.O.C. or France’s official language.
Fact is many Taiwanese can’t speak properly their own official language (Mandarin), mainly because their Mandarin is being influenced by Minnan (whatever you call it) pronunciation and even grammar (for instance: 我沒有胖!)[/quote]
Ah, I’m glad to know who it is who is in charge of determining what is proper Mandarin. May I e-mail you when I have further questions? 
The people in Taiwan who speak Mandarin seem to be able to communicate with each other without any problem. Their Mandarin is not the same as the Mainland standard, but then again American English is not the same as RP. Does that make American English “improper”? (Well, that depends upon whom you ask, of course.)
People in China also speak their Putonhua with regional variations in accent.
Hongkongnese speak mando with a different accent too.
Americans speak english with regional accents too. Do the french all sound the same? I understand French canadian is slightly different from french french as well.
It’s not their own language - it’s an imposed language. Nobody here spoke it sixty-five years ago. Almost everyone you pour scorn upon (with strong Taiwan Guoyu pronunciation) was forced to speak it, and learned it as a second language, just like you with English. I suppose you despise the French of the Quebecois, too? How about the Cameroonians? Mauritians?
Not to mention Parisians dont like anyone other then other Parisians as well so I hear 
Actually, during the Japanese occupation there were some areas where Mandarin was widely spoken. Someone recently uncovered info from Japanese language surveys in Taiwan in the 1920s, and the results are interesting. I’ll see if I can find the source… it was from an article I translated a few years ago.
lol, true, they think they’re the center of the universe.
(I’m not from Paris but from Normandy. Advice, if you happen to visit France, don’t spend to much time in Paris, it’s way overrated, countryside is much better )