[quote=“headhonchoII”]Haha I actually saw Fred Smitg say he was going to vote for Obama in the next election! Something in the air perhaps?
I could do with the taibaozheng to go into China on , that would be handy. Cue Sat TV to follow with his ‘I was standing in line with my taibaozheng and …’.[/quote]
Yes its fast, convenient, cheapo and, lasts 5 years, and can be renewed in China. Rather convenient for me 
I hate thos foreign cues in China, so slow.
So, CN, do you “hold loyalty” to both Australia and Taiwan? How do you manage to reconcile your loyalty to both, when you seem to infer that it’s an impossibility for others to be loyal to more than country?
It certainly wouldn’t be difficult for me to feel and fulfill allegiance to both Taiwan and the UK, if I held the duties of citizenship in both concurrently. The two countries are in a state of amity, and there is zero likelihood that they might go to war with each other during my lifetime, so it is hardly likely that I might experience any truly significant conflict of loyalties.
Taiwan has benefited greatly over the years from the contributions and assistance furnished by emigrants who have simultaneously held ROC and US passports (to take the US as an example). Many have served in the higher echelons of government, academia and big business in the US, building up precious knowledge and connections, and have then returned to Taiwan to take up high positions here and contribute their expertise to the betterment of this country. Nobel Prize-winner Lee Yuan-tse and TSMC founder Morris Chang are but two of the most prominent examples of many. In addition, they have played an important role in building bridges and opening or improving channels of communication between Taiwan and the US. Given this situation and the extent to which Taiwan has gained from it, it is extraordinary for anyone in government here to argue against allowing immigrants to have the same dual nationality status as was allowed to those emigrants from here.
So, CN, do you “hold loyalty” to both Australia and Taiwan? How do you manage to reconcile your loyalty to both, when you seem to infer that it’s an impossibility for others to be loyal to more than country?
[/quote]
I hold Loyalty to Australia and Australia only, hell I’m even planning to join the Australian Defence Force as an officer after I finish university. I did not receive Taiwanese Nationality until June of last year when I registered for it, since I was granted automatic citizenship due to jus sanguinis after they changed the law in 2000 to allow mothers to being qualified to give citizenship through decent. If the Taiwanese Government or the Australian Government forced me to choose Australian or Taiwanese, you bet your ass I’ll keep my Aussie passport and it would be a major headache for me not having Taiwanese citizenship (assets and inheritance etc). Now that’s what I call proving loyalty beyond personal interest.
[quote=“cyborg_ninja”]I hold Loyalty to Australia and Australia only, hell I’m even planning to join the Australian Defence Force as an officer after I finish university. I did not receive Taiwanese Nationality until June of last year when I registered for it, since I was granted automatic citizenship due to jus sanguinis after they changed the law in 2000 to allow mothers to being qualified to give citizenship through decent. [color=#FF0000]
If
[/color] the Taiwanese Government or the Australian Government forced me to choose Australian or Taiwanese, you bet your ass I’ll keep my Aussie passport and it would be a major headache for me not having Taiwanese citizenship (assets and inheritance etc). Now that’s what I call proving loyalty beyond personal interest.[/quote]
If ifs and buts were candy and nuts, we could have a party! But, they ain’t, are they?
A few more thoughts on this issue, which I can refine and incorporate into my petition if I take this up again:
Renouncing original citizenship is a big matter for many people. Although they have settled permanently in Taiwan, come to view this as their home, and have no intention of going back to resettle in their former homeland, they still retain strong emotional ties to the land where they were born and, in most cases, grew up. They often have elderly parents, siblings and other family members – usually all of their family members except their spouse and children – still living there. They are likely to want and need to make frequent visits to the old country, perhaps at very short notice, and may have to go back for an extended period to take care of sick or dying parents or attend to other such emergencies. The loss of their citizenship in that country, while carrying no benefit for Taiwan, can have significantly negative consequences for them in such situations.
Why, indeed, shouldn’t a person hold dual citizenship in two friendly countries, such as the ROC and the USA or the UK? There is absolutely no detriment to either country stemming from such status, but rather it a source of potentially substantial gain to both. With citizenship in both countries, they are able to spread their lives between both, moving back and forth without restriction, acting as bridges between the two, and serving as an important conduit for the interflow of mutual benefits. There are numerous examples of ROC citizens who have acquired citizenship in other countries and served both of their homelands with great distinction. It is nonsense to assert that a person can have only one homeland at any one time, and to embody this in restrictive laws that confine the role a person can play in one or other of them. It has long been irrational, a vestige of an era long past, and is becoming ever more irrational as the world becomes increasingly borderless in more and more other respects.
If the renunciation requirement is deleted or substantially modified, there are only a few hundred citizens of Western countries who will wish to take advantage of it (since there are only a few thousand such people residing here permanently who meet all of the other quite strict conditions for applying for naturalization). Most of those people are top-quality human resources who have made and are making a substantial contribution to Taiwan. They are lawyers, doctors, engineers, writers, government translators, school teachers, university professors, business proprietors, etcetera. They have lived here for a long time already, have Taiwanese spouses and children, and have substantial investments here. Enabling them to obtain citizenship is the surest way to secure their full allegiance to Taiwan, ensure that they fully integrate into this society, feel that they fully belong here, and no longer have thoughts of moving on because of a sense of not being accepted as real members of this society.
Permanent residence is far from providing a strong assurance of being able to remain in Taiwan. It carries strict conditionality that can cause it to be easily and undeservedly lost. For example, if someone with PR has to leave Taiwan to take care of an ailing parent, or needs to be posted abroad temporarily by his company, or wishes to pursue a short course of study overseas, he will lose his PR just by virtue of being outside Taiwan for more than half of any year.
Let Taiwan be generous to these people. They have done more than enough to deserve it. Countries that are the main recipients of Taiwanese migrants treat them with exactly such generosity. Taiwan has greatly benefited, with many such emigrants subsequently returning to render great service for Taiwan or furnishing considerable help to Taiwan from their new homeland. Let Taiwan reciprocate and grant the same benefits to Westerners who have migrated here. It will be very much to Taiwan’s credit if it does so, but can only be to Taiwan’s deep discredit if it refuses to do so, and especially if it refuses to do so for reasons that cannot stand up to even the lightest scrutiny.
[quote=“llary”]I was approved for ROC naturalization candidacy last year and already gave up my original nationality, I am currently waiting for the UK to send some documents confirming my renunciation.
I believe quite strongly that anyone applying for citizenship of another country should be required to give up their original citizenship. Naturalization should be seen as something very serious and more than just a way to live more conveniently in a foreign country. I do not agree that you should be able to collect passports like visa stamps - if you still have a strong connection remaining with your birth country then why is permanent residency not sufficient?
What is unfair is that some countries (like the UK) allow resumption of citizenship while others (like the US) don’t, but that’s not really Taiwan’s problem. For what it’s worth I have no intention to re-apply for British citzenship because it would offer me no benefit.
Apart from the renunciation debate Taiwan is quite lenient and efficient when it comes to naturalization. The process was easier than my initial visa applications 10 years ago and at all stages I was treated with respect and professionalism. More white foreigners than ever are becoming ROC citizens and the days of getting strange looks or raised eyebrows are long gone.
I don’t think anything needs changing.[/quote]
I have to say, I mostly agree with you. My only problem was that going through the actual renunciation with my ex-country was so long and bungled that it cost me about a year. It was huge mafan, and if not for that I would have had my ID Card last year August already. The irony for me was that if a Saffa takes another country’s citizenship you lose SA citizenship automatically anyway, unless you specifically jump through another bureaucratic hoop too keep it during this naturalization process.
Either way, I’m not too bothered. From what I’ve seen of some people wishing to acquire ROC/Taiwan citizenship, I’d rather the language p[art was more strict than anything else. A proper oral exam, instead of an easily hacked written exam. 
[quote=“bismarck”][quote=“llary”]I was approved for ROC naturalization candidacy last year and already gave up my original nationality, I am currently waiting for the UK to send some documents confirming my renunciation.
I believe quite strongly that anyone applying for citizenship of another country should be required to give up their original citizenship. Naturalization should be seen as something very serious and more than just a way to live more conveniently in a foreign country. I do not agree that you should be able to collect passports like visa stamps - if you still have a strong connection remaining with your birth country then why is permanent residency not sufficient?
What is unfair is that some countries (like the UK) allow resumption of citizenship while others (like the US) don’t, but that’s not really Taiwan’s problem. For what it’s worth I have no intention to re-apply for British citzenship because it would offer me no benefit.
Apart from the renunciation debate Taiwan is quite lenient and efficient when it comes to naturalization. The process was easier than my initial visa applications 10 years ago and at all stages I was treated with respect and professionalism. More white foreigners than ever are becoming ROC citizens and the days of getting strange looks or raised eyebrows are long gone.
I don’t think anything needs changing.[/quote]
I have to say, I mostly agree with you. My only problem was that going through the actual renunciation with my ex-country was so long and bungled that it cost me about a year. It was huge mafan, and if not for that I would have had my ID Card last year August already. The irony for me was that if a Saffa takes another country’s citizenship you lose SA citizenship automatically anyway, unless you specifically jump through another bureaucratic hoop too keep it during this naturalization process.
Either way, I’m not too bothered. From what I’ve seen of some people wishing to acquire ROC/Taiwan citizenship, I’d rather the language p[art was more strict than anything else. A proper oral exam, instead of an easily hacked written exam. [/quote]
Bismarck you and I both had long periods of statelessness. I had no Tarc and no Taiwan passport and no Aussie citizenship for over 10 months. But we are determined littel fuckers who won’t be told no we cannot do this or that. I rememebr all the stupid arguments I would get into with expats in the 1990’s when I told them I had applied for ROC nationality who were certain I was telling porky pies and how they knew it couldn’t be possible as I wasn’t “Chinese” lol
If pepole really want ROC Nationality they just deal with the laws of the land. As for you and most others, they lose their overseas nationality regardless of having to renounce or not. It’s only the priveldged few who dont and they are the biggest whiners. They always come with the quip " it isnt really worth it anyways " which just demonstrates they dont need ROC Nationality anyways. They have their JFRV’s or APRC’s which were not available to me in the 1990’s. I know quite a few expats who remain here on work bases ARC’s as they can’t even apply for a JFRV or Citizenship due to " circumstances" back in their home countries.
If you live permanently in Taiwan and have no plans to go back to your birth country for any length of time then why does it matter to give up your original citizenship? If you do have plans to go back in future then why do you need Taiwan citizenship? It’s pretty easy to get resident visas or permanent residency in Taiwan compared to many other countries.[/quote]
Do you know how hard it is to get a US visa? If I give up my US citizenship, it’d be very difficult and costly for me to go back to the US for any reasonable length of time should my family need me there for an extended period (e.g. illness or death of family member, property issues, etc.).
I make my home here in Taiwan, but I also make my home in the US. I think dual citizenship would be reasonable; it would solve many problems and create none.
I am unwilling to give up my US citizenship, but I would also like to have ROC citizenship so I am not limited by the restrictions of the APRC (which while fantastic still has some restrictions, like the six-month in-country requirement), plus I could go to China without paying through the nose each time.
[quote=“Tigerman”][quote=“cyborg_ninja”]I hold Loyalty to Australia and Australia only, hell I’m even planning to join the Australian Defence Force as an officer after I finish university. I did not receive Taiwanese Nationality until June of last year when I registered for it, since I was granted automatic citizenship due to jus sanguinis after they changed the law in 2000 to allow mothers to being qualified to give citizenship through decent. [color=#FF0000]
If
[/color] the Taiwanese Government or the Australian Government forced me to choose Australian or Taiwanese, you bet your ass I’ll keep my Aussie passport and it would be a major headache for me not having Taiwanese citizenship (assets and inheritance etc). Now that’s what I call proving loyalty beyond personal interest.[/quote]
If ifs and buts were candy and nut, we could have a party! But, they ain’t, are they?[/quote]
Well very lucky for me that I got ROC nationality through decent and Australia doesn’t have a one nationality law.
[quote=“cyborg_ninja”]I hold Loyalty to Australia and Australia only, hell I’m even planning to join the Australian Defence Force as an officer after I finish university. I did not receive Taiwanese Nationality until June of last year when I registered for it, since I was granted automatic citizenship due to jus sanguinis after they changed the law in 2000 to allow mothers to being qualified to give citizenship through decent. [color=#FF0000]
If
[/color] the Taiwanese Government or the Australian Government forced me to choose Australian or Taiwanese, you bet your ass I’ll keep my Aussie passport and it would be a major headache for me not having Taiwanese citizenship (assets and inheritance etc). Now that’s what I call proving loyalty beyond personal interest.[/quote]
Very lucky, indeed! So, perhaps you should think twice before telling others in less fortunate circumstances to put their money where their mouths are, so to speak. Just a thought. 
[quote=“Tigerman”][quote=“cyborg_ninja”]I hold Loyalty to Australia and Australia only, hell I’m even planning to join the Australian Defence Force as an officer after I finish university. I did not receive Taiwanese Nationality until June of last year when I registered for it, since I was granted automatic citizenship due to jus sanguinis after they changed the law in 2000 to allow mothers to being qualified to give citizenship through decent. [color=#FF0000]
If
[/color] the Taiwanese Government or the Australian Government forced me to choose Australian or Taiwanese, you bet your ass I’ll keep my Aussie passport and it would be a major headache for me not having Taiwanese citizenship (assets and inheritance etc). Now that’s what I call proving loyalty beyond personal interest.[/quote]
Very lucky, indeed! So, perhaps you should think twice before telling others in less fortunate circumstances to put their money where their mouths are, so to speak. Just a thought. [/quote]
If there is a need to renounce my ROC nationality to prove loyalty to Australia (eg, getting a Sec Clearance), I would do it in a heartbeat. But then again I can’t renounce ROC nationality coz I haven’t completed my military service obligation yet.
Edit: if you want the rights of ROC nationals to attain dual citizenship, become one first and move back home and fulfill the residency requirements again.
[quote=“Tigerman”][quote=“cyborg_ninja”]I hold Loyalty to Australia and Australia only, hell I’m even planning to join the Australian Defence Force as an officer after I finish university. I did not receive Taiwanese Nationality until June of last year when I registered for it, since I was granted automatic citizenship due to jus sanguinis after they changed the law in 2000 to allow mothers to being qualified to give citizenship through decent. [color=#FF0000]
If
[/color] the Taiwanese Government or the Australian Government forced me to choose Australian or Taiwanese, you bet your ass I’ll keep my Aussie passport and it would be a major headache for me not having Taiwanese citizenship (assets and inheritance etc). Now that’s what I call proving loyalty beyond personal interest.[/quote]
Very lucky, indeed! So, perhaps you should think twice before telling others in less fortunate circumstances to put their money where their mouths are, so to speak. Just a thought. [/quote]
Not his fault he waited 20 years to get ROC naitonality is it? After all he was born here to an ROC mother and wasn’t granted ROC Naitonality. He wasnt allowed to have ROC naitonality being born to a foreign father. Don’t you think that sucks more? Lets ask Tommy525 about that.
See Cyborg I didnt become and ROC national so I could move to another country and get citizenship there.
TAIWAN IS MY HOME. 
Not with a JFRV there is no residential requirement. Only with an APRC and that can be given for up to 2 years or beyond if you apply permission to be away for longer first.
The same rules apply to Australian Canadian UK US permanent residents as well if they leave for extended periods they lose their residency as well.
In fact I know a person with an PARC who left for 8 months without notifying as was able to come back and resume living here again.
Note that you can also be stripped of ROC natonality as well. Like everyting please read the terms and conditions that apply.
Alos there is nothing stopiing anyone from getting a visa if required to go back and visit relatives in their own country. I got one which meant I had a visa which allowed for 12 months period of stay for visiting close family relatives. IE my sister my son and one surviving parent. Done in a matter of hours.
[quote=“cyborg_ninja”][color=#FF0000]
If
[/color] there is a need to renounce my ROC nationality to prove loyalty to Australia (eg, getting a Sec Clearance), I would do it in a heartbeat.[/quote]
There’s that if again. 
Why shouldn’t others be able to have that luxury?
I’m not buying that! You needed to apply to get your ROC citizenship in the first place. Had you not done so, you would not now be an ROC citizen. It seems to me that you want the benefits of both citizenships, but, don’t want to earn ROC citizenship. 
Heck, you openly state that Taiwan citizenship isn’t worth much to you, at least not compared to your first citizenship.
I don’t much care about this issue. But, it seems to me that Taiwan screams about reciprocity only when it suits Taiwan. That’s fine. Its Taiwan’s right to do so. But, its a policy that could come back to bite Taiwan in the ass someday, and it doesn’t make for good, or at least rational, policy.
[quote=“Tigerman”]
I’m not buying that! You needed to apply to get your ROC citizenship in the first place. Had you not done so, you would not now be an ROC citizen. It seems to me that you want the benefits of both citizenships, but, don’t want to earn ROC citizenship. [/quote]
Taiwanese Nationality is automatic to people born to Taiwanese parents, plus I was born in Taiwan as well. I currently only hold nationality, no citizenship. All I have to do is go get my household registration and go join the Taiwanese military, but I’d rather serve overseas.
I know that. But, when you were born, you were not entitled to either Taiwan citizenship or nationality. You became eligible only after amendments to Taiwan’s Nationality Act. By your own words, you care little for your status as a Taiwan national, and would renounce it in a heartbeat if required by Australia to do so. Given that, I don’t understand why you believe and argue that foreign nationals who have moved here by choice and have made homes and have families here should justifiably be forced to renounce their own first citizenships in order to obtain the benefits that you have just fallen into 
but, don’t really value.
Yes. But, the choice is yours.
You’re being silly.[/quote]
So how do you think Taiwan is going to give reciprocity when most other countries don’t allow dual naitonality. The ROC has one policy for everybody.
If you had different policies for different countries that would lead to chants of racism and discrimination. It’s not going to help Bismarck or Touduke or Mr He or many others if the policy is changed. Maybe Pres Ma can do something about it and get it changed. I don’t think the people in the government here share your enthusiam on having the law changed.
Life isn’t about being fair. Life wasn’t meant to be easy for all. Cyborg got nationality by descent not by moving here and applying for nationality. He had to show TECO his fathers ID card and Hukou to them in Sydney. So it’s a different rule he get’s it under. 
His parents are ROC citizens and he was born here.
There are also many countries which won’t allow dual naitonality to children born to ROC parents here. Are you going to petition those foreign governments as well to allow dual naitonality? You know, reciprocity and all that?
Yes just as you have the same choice to apply for ROC nationality or not. I had that choice, made a decisions based on the laws that apply, and have what I wanted.
NOt an easy decision to make to renounce, just ask those who have done so.
I know that. But, when you were born, you were not entitled to either Taiwan citizenship or nationality. You became eligible only after amendments to Taiwan’s Nationality Act. [/quote]
Yes laws were changed, not exactly that I could have predicted that now did I? Only reason I ever got it is because my ARC expired when I was 20 and I was looking at visa options to come back to Taiwan if I wanted to work there in the future, TECO told me I already have ROC nationality as I was born in Taiwan. Just like you attained your nationality because who your parents are and where you were born, we live life by the cards we were dealt.