[color=#0000FF]Original Title: Taiwan justice and logic …[/color]
I’m all for punishing the guilty but this is … well, just crazy … they are like pit bulls, holding on …
Political motivated, this close to the elections? You bet it is!
the title is an oxymoron
just read the same article, total scam. totally politically motivated. mainland Chinese act there. and they say they are separate countries. might as well just go ahead and hand over the keys now.
I thought of oxymoron also when I read this title.
STICK IT TO THEM HARD!
Life’s a bitch, then you die.
I don’t think it’s politically motivated. The first judgment was ridiculous. Chen was found not guilty because the judge decided that influencing bank mergers was not part of the president’s powers so how could he have any influence? It was another brain dead interpretation of the law.
Don’t forget, it was only a few months ago the supreme court ruled that Chen had not in fact embezzled state funds. This would be a much more damning case to influence.
My suspicion is that what we are seeing is not so much political manipulation as a kind of anarchy brought on by the Ma admin’s lack of scruples and inability to implement proper reforms and direct the civil service. In the absence of oversight and guidelines this is what you get: incompetence and abuse and some bizarre free for all activity.
It’s like a kindergarten class in Taiwan once the Taiwanese teacher has left to go photocopy materials and Johnny Canuck is in charge.
There’s nothing free for all about corruption charges against politicians in Taiwan, you have to look at who gets charged and when and who is in the current administration. Lee Deng Hui has been brought up on charges recently…he’s 90 or something, don’t think the timing is very odd? It’s well known many other KMT administrators would have taken the ‘black gold’ around then, where are the charges against them?
18 years for this offence is also way over the top even if guilty, nobody got killed or hurt. The Taiwan justice system is a merry-go-round affair. Don’t get what you want in the first round? Keep going until you get a judge sympathetic to your case.
[quote=“headhonchoII”]There’s nothing free for all about corruption charges against politicians in Taiwan, you have to look at who gets charged and when and who is in the current administration. Lee Deng Hui has been brought up on charges recently…he’s 90 or something, don’t think the timing is very odd? It’s well known many other KMT administrators would have taken the ‘black gold’ around then, where are the charges against them?
18 years for this offence is also way over the top even if guilty, nobody got killed or hurt. The Taiwan justice system is a merry-go-round affair. Don’t get what you want in the first round? Keep going until you get a judge sympathetic to your case.[/quote]
I agree but that doesn’t mean this is being directed by the president’s office. I suspect this is overzealous prosecutors looking to make themselves look good, ingratiate themselves with the president, or the KMT, and abusing their position. That the Ma admin is happy to see this happen does not mean they are directing it.
As for the merry go round aspect that it the structure. You have three chances and each case has to reconsider the evidence. Completely. Nothing is carried over. Hence the possibility of wildly different verdicts. And as I wrote, the fact that different trials show different results suggest that this is not being directed but is a result of a poorly run judiciary.
Consider how civil suits have gotten out of control recently too. Is the KMT controlling that? All in all, the evidence to me suggests a judiciary that is badly managed not over-managed from the top. I admit I could very well be wrong.
18 years for Chen’s crimes. I agree. Ridiculous.
Shouldn’t this thread be moved to Taiwan Politics?
[quote=“Mucha Man”]My suspicion is that what we are seeing is not so much political manipulation as a kind of anarchy brought on by the Ma admin’s lack of scruples and inability to implement proper reforms and direct the civil service. In the absence of oversight and guidelines this is what you get: incompetence and abuse and some bizarre free for all activity.
It’s like a kindergarten class in Taiwan once the Taiwanese teacher has left to go photocopy materials and Johnny Canuck is in charge.[/quote]
Not when I was teaching kindy. Ya, the oversight is gone, but it didn’t lead to incompetence. bizarre free for all…maybe, If I so chose; but that means the Taiwanese teacher’s in a meeting and not just making a photocopy. 
But, to be serious, there are serious problems with the political interference of the judiciary. Judicial appointments are, of course, political in nature, and most judges in Taiwan are KMT appointments. A little balance will take time - at least a generation or two.
Totally agree with you on this. :bravo:
I’d be interested though if you think the same thing about very ambitious and overzealous prosecutors in the US such as Patrick Fitzgerald (who investigated the Plame Affair and also went after Conrad Black). In my opinion, in the Black case, his extrajudicial comments heightened public condemnation of the accused and possibly even influenced the jury. 
I ask you this because I think the biggest cheerleaders in Taiwan for the pan-greens and the biggest critics of the KMT-heavy judiciary were probably, if Canadian or from the North is the US, quite pleased to see Lord Black convicted. In both cases, I see a highly politicized prosecution. Are you against that in all circumstances, or just, in the case of the KMT, when you are against the politics of the prosecutors? 
[quote=“kryptos_99”][quote=“Mucha Man”]My suspicion is that what we are seeing is not so much political manipulation as a kind of anarchy brought on by the Ma admin’s lack of scruples and inability to implement proper reforms and direct the civil service. In the absence of oversight and guidelines this is what you get: incompetence and abuse and some bizarre free for all activity.
It’s like a kindergarten class in Taiwan once the Taiwanese teacher has left to go photocopy materials and Johnny Canuck is in charge.[/quote]
Not when I was teaching kindy. Ya, the oversight is gone, but it didn’t lead to incompetence. bizarre free for all…maybe, If I so chose; but that means the Taiwanese teacher’s in a meeting and not just making a photocopy.
But, to be serious, there are serious problems with the political interference of the judiciary. Judicial appointments are, of course, political in nature, and most judges in Taiwan are KMT appointments. A little balance will take time - at least a generation or two.[/quote]
I wouldn’t agree with that. The law professionals in Taiwan are mostly in the green camp. And so do most judges. The same holds true with virtually all generals in the armed forces. They were promoted by bribing CSB.
It doesn’t have to be explicit interference, all it has to be is a few words in the right peoples ears, ‘your promotion is coming up’, ‘we need your help on this’, ‘there are a lot of people watching the result of this case’, ‘we have to see justice being served’. The end result is the same unfortunately. I find the 18 year sentence appalling although in this regard Taiwan shares some similarities with the US, catch a few mice and hang 'em high for the public to see. Where I’m from murderers will get out faster than that.
Of course what will happen if the DPP get in will be some sort of appeal or sentence commutation and you will see CSB get out then. Even though Chen is guilty of corruption I honestly feel sorry for him at this stage because the sentence doesn’t fit the crime and that’s taking away his human rights and damages all human rights in Taiwan.
Do you have any facts at all to back a single assertion you made above?
[quote=“headhonchoII”]It doesn’t have to be explicit interference, all it has to be is a few words in the right peoples ears, ‘your promotion is coming up’, ‘we need your help on this’, ‘there are a lot of people watching the result of this case’, ‘we have to see justice being served’. The end result is the same unfortunately. I find the 18 year sentence appalling although in this regard Taiwan shares some similarities with the US, catch a few mice and hang 'em high for the public to see. Where I’m from murderers will get out faster than that.
Of course what will happen if the DPP get in will be some sort of appeal or sentence commutation and you will see CSB get out then. Even though Chen is guilty of corruption I honestly feel sorry for him at this stage because the sentence doesn’t fit the crime and that’s taking away his human rights and damages all human rights in Taiwan.[/quote]
The verdict is not final. So, it does not mean much. Everyone in the trade knows that.
I used to work for a brokerage firm. There was this one guy that they retain as some sort of consultant. He told me that EVERY judge got a price. Some may not be monetary. It seems that most public officers and politicians owe him some favor. So, he acted kind of like a power broker. For this firm, he helped on cases involving stock manipulation and fraud. It was amazing to see how settled all those case. Basically, the initial trials tend to give heavier sentence, especially if it get on the news. Where you put money is on the final trial. Often, by that time it is no longer newsworthy, the sentence can be substantially reduced, or even annulled.
With all those hundreds of billions that CSB and DPP had looted, I am quite sure he will get away scotch free, eventually. Personally, I believe he and his family deserves capital punishment for all those acts of greed, and damages done to the government there of, that essentially amounts to treachery.
Do you have any facts at all to back a single assertion you made above?[/quote]
No I don’t. Just like you don’t have any numbers to back up the claim that most judges are KMT. But most law professionals I know are green, that is a fact from personal experience. If you like, check the professors in all those law schools for yourself.
Do you have any facts at all to back a single assertion you made above?[/quote]
No I don’t. [/quote]
I didn’t think so.
Do you have any facts at all to back a single assertion you made above?[/quote]
No I don’t. Just like you don’t have any numbers to back up the claim that most judges are KMT. But most law professionals I know are green, that is a fact from personal experience. If you like, check the professors in all those law schools for yourself.[/quote]
I think it is a little different. Knowing the political preferences of a judge or law professional has got to be a lot easier than knowing if someone achieved their position through bribery. Is it not?
Maybe in the private sector, but definitely not in the public sector.
Remember when the LTH-appointed pro-green Supreme Court justice was caught going into the love hotel with a colleague (she later said she had the shits ) and forced to resign. No way the justice establishment would have gone after him if he was dark blue.
Generals pro-green? You are getting mixed up with pro-blue me thinks!!!
Generals pro-green? You are getting mixed up with pro-blue me thinks!!![/quote]
No he is not. When the DPP came to power one of the first things they did was re-arrange the status quo in the military. Some pro blue generals were put into early retirement or replaced by more neutral or pro green candidates. I know this as my Taiwanese in laws are military and police as well as it being widely talked about in the newspapers of the time. Additionally one of my best friends here is also a high ranking general in the Taiwan military and he is pro green (I will not say his name for obvious reasons).
The police is generally more pro blue and many in the army are too (including most high ranking officers), but the generals are predominantly green or at least “neutral” (due to previous DPP interference ). Or at the very least the generals cannot considered predominantly either pro blue or pro green anymore. I know that for a fact take it or leave it.
Yes, it’s widely known by anyone who actually follows the news that the army become more balanced under CSB and is a fairly neutral body these days, responding to civilian and not party rule. Thank god too.
[quote][quote]With all those hundreds of billions that CSB and DPP[/quote] had looted, I am quite sure he will get away scotch free, eventually. Personally, I believe he and his family deserves capital punishment for all those acts of greed, and damages done to the government there of, that essentially amounts to treachery.
[/quote]
I have no idea where you get that figure but it sounds more like a KMT figure of embezzlement and corruption, stealing from the public, over all the years …