Clearly you are a genius, as evidenced by your formidable knowledge of psychology & sociology. Most of us struggle to understand the complexities of this society, and all along you have had the answers.
And expressed so eloquently.
Let me guess 3 Kinds, you’re twenty something, but people think you’re much younger. You probably couldn’t understand why “Porky’s” wasn’t nominated for an academy award, since YOU enjoyed it so much.
Mental midget.
Wow, so perceptive!
I do happen to be an expert in sociology and psychology! Microethnography encompasses those fields. I take academic relief in these light-hearted forums. I also analyse them for future research queries and have found quite interesting data lurking in these pages.
However, you’re mistaken on your other presumptions.
The ‘three kinds’ has been evidenced in my over 15 years ethnographic microanalysis of Taiwan’s sub-culture.
Tell me, which part did you find particularly offensive? Which part ‘hit home’?
If I’m a ‘mental midget’ and DON’T use immature catch phrases in my postings, what does that make YOU?
Well, what a waste of an education. Your momma must be so proud.
The bit that I didn’t like… hmmm, call me paranoid, but talk of popping cherries and bar sluts, etc., well, SOME people might think that sounds derogatory & sexist. Hell, not the guys down the corner bar, they thought it was just “common sense”. And you call it an academic study. Hmmm… life gets stranger by the minute it seems.
Well, I for one, “Three Kinds” would never insult you in a common way. Not like that “No fan of three kinds”. What kind of an empty skull is he? Why he didn’t even notice that a man with an ethnography, sociology and psychiatry background could not spell the word “polygAmous”. (While that is tantamount to a man of my background mis-spelling Oscar Wild, we can forgive “No fan of Three Kinds”, because after all, he is, as critic of you, an obvious cerebral shorty.)
Three Kinds, you brainless spewer of antique thought. If you are not a mental midget then who is that tapping on my ankles? Filial piety? Did you pick that term up at the Palace Museum? Filial piety to whom? If you’ve been in this country as long as you say you have, you’d know that a lot of young women’s fathers - the ones in particular who came over from the mainland with Chiang, Kai-Shek, - are now DEAD, or dying! To whom are these gals to be loyal?
And if the father isn’t dead? Well, please, one day, go observe the society you live in. Any woman in Taiwan who today unwillingly obeys or obliges her family out of filial loyalty, has been cowardly or conniving, or simply old-fashioned in a way that’s no longer admirable. Can I give you some examples? Letting grandpa smoke in front of the asthmatic little ones. Letting papa drive like a maniac with your children in the car. Having grandchildren for the sake of the grandparents (as if grandpa would inseminate you himself if you refused). (Oh that gets me on the topic of the Chinese purported love of children – another notion that can’t actually pass for sound cultural observation today – but I’ll let it go.)
Final thought. If the well-bred (in Taiwan and elsewhere) behave more dutifully than the rest, it is for one simple reason: to keep their dainty fingers in the family pie.
Hey Toot: That’s really pathetic. On the one hand you say 3 Kinds has made a perceptive analysis of the kinds of women that go with foreign men (the only three kinds he says) and then you say your wife is the exception! Ha!
3 Kinds. Yeah, you think your’re really clever because you’ve identified these three kinds of women and sure there’s examples of all fo them, but claiming that all Taiwanese women who go with foreigners are like this is just plain racist, sexist and insulting. You show what a low opinion of women you have. You are really insulting those Tawianese women who care about their families and want their parents to be happy, but at the same time are in love with a foreigner.
Actually you’ve totally forgotten about those Taiwanese women who show proper ‘filial piety’ and ‘breeding’, but whose parents don’t have a problem with them marrying a foreigner. Or maybe you think that proper breeding means being against mixed marriages. If that’s the case you really are fucked up.
What about you then? You’ve been here 15 years huh? Had bad experiences with local women dumping you then? Not surprising.
Bri
If 3 Kinds is ignorant (misogynistic stereotyping tends to give them away), then his chum Toot is a complete oxygen thief. Either that, or he just has no respect for his wife. By supporting 3 Kind’s “perceptive” insights, what category does that put HIS wife into?
In reality, she probably just felt sorry for the lonely foreign slob at the end of the bar.
Don’t stick your head up from the primordial swamp you inhabit you two, or you’ll realise that most people don’t actually believe that sexist crap any more. Along with racism, sexisism is also out of vogue in thinking people’s circles now days, you obviously haven’t heard, huh?
Oh, and before you ask Toot, how did I know you met your wife in a bar? Well… it was hardly at the local chapter of Mensa International, was it now?
" Neither my wife nor I enjoy the bar scene and have never set foot in a bar for that matter."
Toooot! What a sad pair you two are… are you sure, like NEVER, as in… NEVER? The prohibition isn’t still on, you know… The Taliban don’t rule here in Taiwan.
Hey, I didn’t catch the answer to the question - which of the 3 kinds does your wife belong to?
PS: have a drink, it will probably help you to relax and be a bit more balanced.
Lets see. You obviuosly read the part about the bar…That means you must have read the part about what kind of person my wife is…hmmmmmm.
Toooot! What a sad pair you two are… are you sure, like NEVER, as in… NEVER? The prohibition isn’t still on, you know… The Taliban don’t rule here in Taiwan.
Hey, I didn’t catch the answer to the question - which of the 3 kinds does your wife belong to?
So unfortunate that you can’t read (audible sigh discernable as Noble drifts back into the task at hand).
The fourth kind, Greencard Gal, just wants a ticket out of Taiwan, to live in a western country where she’ll be considered beautiful and exotic, and everyone will keep telling her that. Sorry, I forgot to include it before.
Funny how the ones with foreigners are never the ones the Taiwanese are interested in.
Why is that?
Doc
3 kinds (or is it 4 kinds) forgot to mention that his observations were conducted through an intense 15-year survey conducted in every bar throughout Taiwan. Unfortunately, that’s just not where good women hang out trying to make their “catch”. If you’ve got a degree in microethnography, or have conducted intesive study in this field, then how can you have ignored those cross-cultural relationships which are enduring and seem to work? Obviously, you’ve missed a kind. Maybe you just haven’t found the right one for you, and you’re radically bitter about it.
Here’s a bit of advice. If you go around looking for the bad in people, you’re certain to find it. It comes out easily. But if you try looking for the good in people…well…that’s a bit more challenging. If you’re an “expert” in sociology and psychology, then why not try to figure out what makes some of these relationships work? I have a feeling that those couples who have been together for a lifetime (50+ years) have a better understanding of the human psyche than you could ever dream. I’d rather listen to them than your psychobabble. Probably won’t find anyone like that on these forums, though…
In my years here in Taiwan, I think I have only heard of one unsubstantiated incident of woman looking to marry their way out of Taiwan. This isn’t Vietnam or Central Asia, for crying out loud.
Hurling insults is the last resort of the incompetant. Coupled together with your proven inability to read and knee jerk tendency to make WASGAs (Wild Ass Sweeping Generalizations and Assumptions) I need to warn you to kind your mind at home, it is to small to be out on its own.
(P.S. Please slap your school teacher for not educating you properly)
I’ve been thinking about this topic for a few days and this is what I finally put down in my weblog:
The only explanation [in this discussion] that seems to have any logic behind it is the idea that in general, Western ideals and therefore Western men tend to be more tolerant of independent, freethinking women. Quite different from the supposed “Asian” traditions of treating women as subservient, second-class citizens. Of course, this argument is riddled with holes.
First, if it’s simply a desire to live under the traditions of Western tolerance, I can think of many a Western raised Asian men who are as enlightened as their white brethren. Furthermore, if these women are so independent and freethinking, why is it that they need a man at all? Second, at least in Taiwan, there is a much longer tradition of treating women as equals than in the States. Of course, there are men and families in Taiwan that cannot tolerate the educated career woman, but you can find these in the US as well (the redneck myth is alive and well). The National Taiwan University accepted women at least as far back as the 1950s, compared to Harvard in the US, which did not admit women until the 1960s. Women have been an integral part of the Taiwan workforce for centuries, and not in the tea-girl capacity seen in Japan. Many women continue to work even after having children, and I never hear of women being denied positions or jobs in Taiwan because they were married and in their childbearing years, a “weeding” tool used often in corporate America.
So rather than going with the sweeping condemnation of Asian society, this is the best that I personally can come up with.
(1) Asian men (including many foreign born/raised Asian men) have a terrible time with flattery and flirting. Call it a side effect of a lifetime of exposure to CDZ
Second, at least in Taiwan, there is a much longer tradition of treating women as equals than in the States.
What on earth are you talking about? This is quite simply not true.
Of course, there are men and families in Taiwan that cannot tolerate the educated career woman, but you can find these in the US as well (the redneck myth is alive and well).
And as a portion of society?
The National Taiwan University accepted women at least as far back as the 1950s, compared to Harvard in the US, which did not admit women until the 1960s.
Harvard, which has a sister school that once accepted only women, is a special case. Moreover, it began to admit women at least a decade earlier than the date you give.
Look at the percentage of U.S. schools that admitted women vs. the percentage of Taiwan schools that did – and in what numbers. Taiwan can’t even begin to compare with the United States.
Women have been an integral part of the Taiwan workforce for centuries, and not in the tea-girl capacity seen in Japan.
Again, what on earth are you talking about? Centuries? Do you have any idea of the demographics of Han Chinese in Taiwan centuries ago? How many women there were here centuries ago? Or what sort of jobs women had way back when? Or their rights? (The situation of women in Taiwan’s tribes is a separate matter.)
Many women continue to work even after having children …
Quite so. But it is a fairly common expectation – much more so than in the States – that working women will quit their jobs after having a child.
[i] … and I never hear of women being denied positions or jobs in Taiwan because they were married and in their childbearing years, a
Back in the late 80s and it may also still be the case, all family assets, including the children, belonged to the husband. In a divorce the woman had no visitation rights whatsoever. Another way I’ve heard custody dealt with in Taiwan is that in the event of a boy-girl family, the husband gets the more valuable boy and the wife gets the ‘diu le se tong’ girl. Usually no effort is made to keep in touch. Women in Taiwan deal with their marriage situation by haivng ‘self-protection money’ I can’t remember the chinese expression for this- it’s something like si4 fang2 qian2. Money they squirrel away in the event of a divorce. Give me the US and all its shortcomings any day. PS To the poster who asked why independent women need men anyway- you’ve got to be kidding. If I don’t want a man for deep companionship, I would still like a harmless one to engage in a mutual strictly for sex/fun relationship.
Well I had an argument (I am whitey and she is chinese) with my wife. So I put down 3 containers - one is for she is a woman - one is for she is chinese (or we have different cultures) - one is for she is her own person.
The chinese one is basicly something I should accept - I chose to come here - I may like to change it but that should be by agreement.
The others are pretty normal relationships in any country.
Sometimes it takes time to get things in the right container.
Jody: You haven’t heard of women being denied jobs in Taiwan becuase they are married or have children? It happens all the time. Employers are wary of hiring ‘older’ (ie 25 or more) women in many positions because they think they will be getting married soon and leave the job. Tehre’s no secret about this and no law against it (that I know of) either.
Bri
Boo! Lion,
You’re wrong, there is a law against it, but a lot of employers worm their way around it by making impossible for the woman to work if she takes maternity leave or gets married. Like they suddenly assign her to an office in Taichung if she lives in Taipei…that kind of thing. My Chinese teacher told me about it.
I didn’t know about that law. I guess many Taiwanese don’t either. Is it a human rights law against discrimination, or an employment law. Aren’t employment laws just totally unenforced? When my girlfriend was lookng for a job and telling me about all the illegal workign hours and conditions the employers were asking (like you have to work ten hours a day every day of the month including Sunday) I asked her if she couldn’t just takle the job then make a coplaint. “To who?” “the government or the police”. She just laughed. She said she knows of cases where employers have paid 5000 a month less than they originally said and the employees just couldn’t do anything about it. Unless they had good guanxi of course.
Bri
This all goes to show how much perception has to do with all issues that have to do with human relationships and society. Cranky Laowai obviously has a very different POV from I, but I’m not sure why the weight of my opinions should have anything to do with how long I’ve been here.
But to rise to the occasion, I’ve been in Taiwan for about 6 years, and I’m something like 7th generational Taiwanese. The very first time I was in Taiwan was in 1976. I have several hundred (I’m not kidding) relatives in Taiwan - many of whom are distant. I have worked in local firms for all the years I’ve been here. However, as far as who I know and who I’ve talked to, I admit that I mostly interact with middle to upper middle class Taiwanese (both Ben Di and Wai Sheng) and not many indigenous peoples.
Radcliffe students did not get Harvard degrees until 1963, the same year the two schools merged, which makes me correct, not Cranky Laowai. Yale didn’t admit women until 1969. Dartmouth, 1973. Amhearst, 1976. Princeton, 1977. Columbia, 1983. You can check my facts - I’m pretty sure they are correct.
Every single company I’ve worked for and come into contact with (mostly import/export and manufacturing companies - throughout Taiwan: from Taipei to Taichung to Kaohsiung including really out of the way places like Miao Li etc…) has had enormous back offices filled with women ranging in age from early 20s to probably late 40s. I don’t know why there seems to be a gap after that. Most of the women do things like sales and book-keeping. Occasionally, I’ve met female engineers and factory managers. The only receptionist/ tea girls I’ve ever dealt with in Taiwan were high school girls who were “interning” at the company after school or on school breaks. All my cousins (female) work for banks and accounting firms: they are all in their 30s to 40s and tend to have high positions (exec. vp etc…)
I’m sorry about the “centuries” thing… I meant “decades”. Oops. I don’t actually know very much about Taiwan pre-ROC.
I have personally never met a woman in Taiwan who feels that she was “encouraged” to leave or resign from a company because she was pregnant or married. I acknowledge that such things may and probably do happen - but I guess I have been fortunate enough not to have experienced it.
Taiwan has a female Vice President right now. The US has never had a female Vice President.
I do not believe that sexism is worse in the US than in Taiwan. If anything, sexism is probably more rampant in Taiwan than in the US, but the women in the US make a bigger deal out of it than the women in Taiwan. However, I don’t believe it’s fair to generalize about the local men being somehow less “enlightened” than their foreign counterparts when it comes to treating women as equals. There are jerks in Taiwan and there are jerks in the US as well. Jerks as a portion of the general population? Well, from my experience, pretty large among the male population regardless of where one goes. Which Cranky Laowai has proven to me once again.