Tarot

Discussion Open Forum
1

My brother is into tarot cards. He’s a very intelligent guy with a first in philosophy (if that makes any difference). I could some up my thoughts about this kind of belief in a fairly short sentence of 1-2 syllable words, but that wouldn’t be constructive.

The thing about science (apart from the fact that it’s the most successful epistemology ever, that predicts the movement of spaceships, asteroids etc to remarkable accuracy etc) is that it is open minded and thrives on being proved wrong. There is probably nothing more interesting for a scientist than being proved wrong.

So, bearing in mind that we are brothers and I do already know what I think, I would love to have someone explain to me rationally how and why it works. Perhaps a brother is not the best person to do this.

I do believe events have causes. I do believe the universe is governed by rules that are the same everywhere - if they appear not to be, then the rules are not sophisticated enough and don’t yet fully explain why. The possibility of other universes or beyond the universe may just contradict this but as far as I know, tarot is within this one.

Arthur C Clarke said “Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.” Put another way, if tarot is true, any sufficiently advanced science should explain it. If it can’t in principle be explained by a sufficiently advanced scientific theory, why should I believe it?

I mean that - I would like someone to tell me why a rational human should choose to believe it works (other than in the sense that believing in it, or participating in it may genuinely help people make decisions but only because it forces them to think or decide).

If someone can do that, I’ll be very happy because it means the universe is very different from what I’d assumed, which makes it still more interesting. It’s reasonable to assume that our current knowledge of reality is very limited and there’s a lot more out there to be discovered, that will radically change our cosmology. Otherwise, I’ll believe it’s superstitious claptrap, and probably a product of intellectual or personal weakness, put bluntly.

Or is asking for a reason to believe barking up the wrong tree.

2

Hmm perhaps it is about stretching you mind in ways that you are not used to?

Examples
If 30 years ago you had suggested that tiny robots could be used to perform surgery from the inside of the body, would you have been believed? How about 50 years ago or 100?

So the start point is - do you believe that Tarot works? If you do then open your mind to the explanations as to why. If you don’t then simply let it go as it is not important to understand how something is supposed to work - if it doesn’t.

3

[quote=“fruitloop”]I mean that - I would like someone to tell me why a rational human should choose to believe it works (other than in the sense that believing in it, or participating in it may genuinely help people make decisions but only because it forces them to think or decide).
[…]
Otherwise, I’ll believe it’s superstitious claptrap, and probably a product of intellectual or personal weakness, put bluntly.

Or is asking for a reason to believe barking up the wrong tree.[/quote]Don’t knock the sense that believing in it… The sensation involved is key.

The primate mind evolved to apprehend the environment within specific circumstances. Much of science falls outside of those constraints and fails to prove emotionally satisfying.

Tarot is sufficiently vague, and sufficiently structured, that our minds – which seek for patterns – are able to play and do their thing. That satisfies a very basic desire: your brain wants to sort through the static in search of the message. The fact that the patterns and the ‘information’ derived are meaningless is, itself, meaningless. The activity brings satisfaction; ex post facto justification just safeguards the ego and ensures another go around.

Think of it this way.
Science = test tube insemination. Productive, hardly sexy.
Tarot = masturbation. Unproductive, but gets you off.

4

Dear Fruitloop,

It’s superstitious claptrap.

It’s no better or worse than astrology, homeopathy or believing that if you point at the moon, your ear will be chopped off.

Don’t waste too much time wondering if it works any better than cold reading or hot reading. Maybe spend a minute trying to explain to your brother why you don’t believe in it after you ask why he does. Perhaps you could point him toward some skeptic sites like James Randi’s JREF site. I think his Million-dollar Challenge (for anyone to prove that they have special powers) is good evidence against anyone having them.

“At JREF, we offer a one-million-dollar prize to anyone who can show, under proper observing conditions, evidence of any paranormal, supernatural, or occult power or event. The JREF does not involve itself in the testing procedure . . . To date, no one has passed the preliminary tests.”

randi.org/site/

A lot of smart people believe stupid things.

Of course, all of this is just my opinion. :whistle:

5

I dunno about Tarot, never having been to a reading. Other forms of astrology, like horoscopes and palm reading, I definitely believe in. There are certain laws of the universe that we know of and there are some we don’t totally comprehend. It is also not always about ‘making decisions’. Astrology also helps you rationalize the events in your life, and it also works as counselling!! Accurately Predicting the future is not a big thing, I have seen enough futures predicted, it is how we make the choices in our lives that really affect the outcome. And this to me is the big lesson. We all think, we would do better if we know what’s coming, Nah.

You don’t have to believe in it but for your brother’s sake, you can call truce and say, I am glad this Tarot thing works for you. I would have a brother who is into Tarot rather than having one who is jumping from air planes (find that highly unreasonable too). Well, in my case, I would rather have a brother :slight_smile: .

6

That is exactly what I am saying. You don’t need special powers. You need to study, learn, make mistakes etc. And you will learn. Like driving, or swimming. You don’t need special powers to stay afloat! In India we don’t treat Astrologers as mystics, they are businessmen. Some are honest and good and some aren’t.

7

That phrasing implies that it works, when in fact whether it works should be asked first.

My answer is that like all superstitions, there is no evidence of any truth behind it, nor should the rational mind expect there to be. Whether someone chooses to interpret part of the static, as Jaboney put it, as meaningful or as evidence of the truth of their particular form of superstitious claptrap is their business, of course, and it’s not always a good thing to burst their bubble.

A fully rational human should not and would not believe in it. The fact that otherwise seemingly rational people do believe in it and other superstitions is evidence that we are not in fact fully rational beings.

Humans are driven to seek answers, meaning, predictability, and control (or at least a sense of control). Uncertainty causes anxiety, which we are driven to reduce. In days of old, superstitions helped provide answers, meaning, predictability and a sense of control. Our brains evolved in an uncertain environment to look for patterns in the static, as Jaboney says. So we as a species have a strong predilection towards superstition. In areas where these things are actually achievable, science has done a good job of replacing superstition, but in areas where we do not yet have answers, meaning, predictability and a sense of control, such as the reason we are here, where we go after we die, and what will happen in the future, superstitions still help provide answers for many people. If they help reduce their anxiety, provide a sense of purpose or an understanding of their place in the grand scheme of things, or otherwise serve as a source of psychological comfort. Tarot and other forms of fortune telling are fun and mysterious to some, and psychologically comforting to others. Personally, I find the ambiguity and randomness of Tarot to be irritating, but I’m a grumpy old fart.

There are worse pastimes one could have, so just let him have fun with it. If he asks you whether you believe in it and why or why not, that’s another matter.

8

[quote=“Dragonbones”] A fully rational human should not and would not believe in it. The fact that otherwise seemingly rational people do believe in it and other superstitions is evidence that we are not in fact fully rational beings.

Humans are driven to seek answers, meaning, predictability, and control (or at least a sense of control). Uncertainty causes anxiety, which we are driven to reduce. … Tarot and other forms of fortune telling are fun and mysterious to some, and psychologically comforting to others. Personally, I find the ambiguity and randomness of Tarot to be irritating, but I’m a grumpy old fart.

There are worse pastimes one could have, so just let him have fun with it. If he asks you whether you believe in it and why or why not, that’s another matter.[/quote]

:bravo: Nice post DB.

I’ve always been tempted to buy a pack of tarot cards, but that’s simply because I like the pretty pictures.

I’ve had my tarot read before - can’t remember what was said. I wasn’t as lucid in my younger years. My beloved ball and chain has also had a tarot reading, but that was many years before I came on the scene. If tarot is to be believed, I should be worried; Europe was in my SO’s romantic future - South Africa didn’t feature. Does that mean I will be ditched later when a French Adonis arrives on the scene? :astonished: Then again maybe the tarot reader was just in that racist mind-set where all Caucasians look alike and a South African fits the bill? Could it be that the tarot reader just knew what got my SO’s knickers in a knot and chose an appropriate race? :ponder:

I’m going to agree that there are worst pastimes to have, and that using tarot cards to make decisions can’t be more dangerous than praying for answers or using dice. You can’t force anyone to think rationally, after all. But I’m also a little too wary to say that the craziness is absolutely okay. It’s a diversion from true and painstaking thought.

In a way, and with regards to personal life choices, people might as well use superstition to decide. If someone can’t decide whether to leave or go, and a therapist hasn’t helped, and they believe in Harry-Potter-like or sacred crap, they might as well use an Ouija board or open a holy book randomly. This and other methods will (not so strangely) just suggest the direction they wish to go in. But there are, surely, better ways to decide? And other lives hang on the decisions.

9

I suppose that’s really all that needs to be said. Another feather in the cap of the infamous ThreadKiller! :smiley:

10

No one has said the obvious. It opens a door to the underworld. It let’s Satan get a foothold in this realm. Keep it up and we’ll all be knee deep in demons.

11

Just because you are knee-deep in demons, good Doctor, don’t drag the rest of us to the bottom of the Styx with you. Off you go now and self-medicate. Some of us are pure of heart.

12

Tell that to the little girl who was talking to Captain Howdy on the Ouija board.

13

I want a demon!!! Do they sell them next to the Hello Kitties???

14

Beware, Noel, you trespass in the court of two fools in a position of conflict. :eh:

15

You manufacture your own demons.

16

[quote=“Dr. McCoy”]
You manufacture your own demons.[/quote]
Stop playing devil’s advocate.

17

[quote=“jimipresley”][quote=“Dr. McCoy”]
You manufacture your own demons.[/quote]
Stop playing devil’s advocate.[/quote]
:roflmao: Ask the Doc for directions and he will show you the road-map to hell!

18

Don’t know about that, but I surely long for a game of French Tarot, it’s been a long time since I played.
Any frenchies around for a game?

19

:astonished: Is that something kinky? I bet it’s something kinky.

20

After all, Arthur Conan Doyle, an otherwise rational man, believed in fairies.