This is something that makes me want to swear like a sailor, but I wont.
This parent was saying how their kid couldn’t write and translate complete sentences from a grammar book and how kids should learn to write before they can speak.
After the parent left everyone commented on the stupidity of the statement.
I said something stupid like, “but, that’s the way everyone does it in Taiwan. It’s like the Taiwan way”.
Instantly, someone that I’ve grown to distrust and distain, spins around and says, “you don’t need to snub your nose at Taiwan culture. It may not all be correct, but it’s our culture.”
Oh dear, there is a statement that borders on the stupidity of the parent they were discussing. Since when does the acquisition of a language, English, have anything to do with culture. Somehow culture justifies stupidity? That takes the cake. With an attitude like that no wonder nothing changes. I am surprised it wasn’t followed by a lecture on the 5000 years of history, and I am sure that we’d discover that they invented English teaching.
Geez, I am ranting here. I do wonder though, how many local teachers really feel that way?
Teaching English IS NOT Culture!
Btw, this is my home. I have spent a large percentage of my adult life here. Patriotic my butt - can’t accept the truth.
[quote=“Bassman”]I said something stupid like, “but, that’s the way everyone does it in Taiwan. It’s like the Taiwan way”.
Instantly, someone that I’ve grown to distrust and distain, spins around and says, “you don’t need to snub your nose at Taiwan culture. It may not all be correct, but it’s our culture.”[/quote]
That may have been aimed at your “it’s like ‘the Taiwan way’” remark rather than at the language teaching part of it. They do get a lot of foreigners commenting on how stupid this or that is. It’s bound to rub them the wrong way.
Also, keep in mind that in Chinese culture and intelligence has long been connected with literacy and literature. Real “language” teaching has been literature teaching in their minds. Perhaps this was at the heart of the mother’s attitude and the other person may have been defending that-- which is part of culture. But that is a real stretch…
#1- I totally agree about things being erroneously lumped under the heading of “culture”. Traffic in Taiwan? Culture. Noise pollution? Culture. Unsanitary conditions? Culture.
Most of this stuff has been introduced in the last 60 years. It’s not culture.
#2- It’s one thing for Taiwanese to say this. It’s an entirely different for an outsider to say it. We’re not entitled. Well, at least it’s rude of us. Well, at least we’d feel the same if they came to our country and criticized us the same way.
It’s like talking to another person about their family. Your family may have a great way for handling thus or so a problem. But if you butt into another person’s family business they aren’t likely to be very accepting no matter how astute your observation is. Very few people or cultures are that open minded. If they were, they probably wouldn’t have such problems that needed to be addressed…
This doesn’t stike me as an unreasonable approach to learning English.
Let me explain my point of view on this matter.
I know little about language teaching—I’m learning.
I’ve never been to Taiwan—I’m coming.
I’m currently a graduate student student in computational and applied mathematics. I interact with many Chinese speaking graduate students in various scientific disciplines.
All of these students are excellent readers of English (especially within their disciplines). Some write English better than their American colleagues, some write much worse. All of them have good listening comprehension (once again, especially within their disciplines). Most of them speak poorly, and by poorly, I mean worse than most of their other international colleagues.
Most of these Chinese speakers are aware of their English deficiencies, but are more or less satisfied with their language abilities. For these people, the primary media for their English communication is in writing.
I think motivation for learning is important here. For the people I interact with, the motivation for developing English proficiency is so they can be active members within the scientific community. The language of modern science is English. If this wasn’t the case, they wouldn’t care very much about English.
To believe that a child should be able to translate Chinese into English with correct gramatical structure before they start speaking is at best stupidity.
Writing huge amounts of text that one does not understand by memory is not proof positive of a childs English level.
Stupidity is stupidity.
Ok, I admit that I shouldn’t have said what I said, but #$@# (golly) I was only joking, other locals laughed.
I am at the end of my tolerance of stupidity. If they want to keep churning out the same crap level of English, then so be it. As far as I am concerned, it’s put up or shut up. I get results.
We’re not talking about reading here, although, that is just as important as anything else. We are talking about education being culture. No, probably what we are really talking about is some local not understanding the simple fact that this country is just as much my home as theirs. I’ve lived a large part of my adult life here and really to understand that for most locals I’ll never be able to fit in as an equal. There are some that would think of me as equal, but not that many, not when their own little view of the world is challenged.
When your culture of education isn’t working you can’t say that, “Oh, that’s just our culture and we can’t change”. What a cop out.
[quote=“puiwaihin”][quote=“Bassman”]I said something stupid like, “but, that’s the way everyone does it in Taiwan. It’s like the Taiwan way”.
Instantly, someone that I’ve grown to distrust and distain, spins around and says, “you don’t need to snub your nose at Taiwan culture. It may not all be correct, but it’s our culture.”[/quote]
That may have been aimed at your “it’s like ‘the Taiwan way’” remark rather than at the language teaching part of it. They do get a lot of foreigners commenting on how stupid this or that is. It’s bound to rub them the wrong way.
Also, keep in mind that in Chinese culture and intelligence has long been connected with literacy and literature. Real “language” teaching has been literature teaching in their minds. Perhaps this was at the heart of the mother’s attitude and the other person may have been defending that-- which is part of culture. But that is a real stretch…
#1- I totally agree about things being erroneously lumped under the heading of “culture”. Traffic in Taiwan? Culture. Noise pollution? Culture. Unsanitary conditions? Culture.
Most of this stuff has been introduced in the last 60 years. It’s not culture.
#2- It’s one thing for Taiwanese to say this. It’s an entirely different for an outsider to say it. We’re not entitled. Well, at least it’s rude of us. Well, at least we’d feel the same if they came to our country and criticized us the same way.
It’s like talking to another person about their family. Your family may have a great way for handling thus or so a problem. But if you butt into another person’s family business they aren’t likely to be very accepting no matter how astute your observation is. Very few people or cultures are that open minded. If they were, they probably wouldn’t have such problems that needed to be addressed…[/quote]
[quote=“Bassman”]Sorry, but I don’t have time for stupidity.
To believe that a child should be able to translate Chinese into English with correct gramatical structure before they start speaking is at best stupidity.
Writing huge amounts of text that one does not understand by memory is not proof positive of a childs English level.
Stupidity is stupidity.
Ok, I admit that I shouldn’t have said what I said, but #$@# (golly) I was only joking, other locals laughed.
I am at the end of my tolerance of stupidity. If they want to keep churning out the same crap level of English, then so be it. As far as I am concerned, it’s put up or shut up. I get results.
We’re not talking about reading here, although, that is just as important as anything else. We are talking about education being culture. No, probably what we are really talking about is some local not understanding the simple fact that this country is just as much my home as theirs. I’ve lived a large part of my adult life here and really to understand that for most locals I’ll never be able to fit in as an equal. There are some that would think of me as equal, but not that many, not when their own little view of the world is challenged.
When your culture of education isn’t working you can’t say that, “Oh, that’s just our culture and we can’t change”. What a cop out.
BassMad[/quote]
Bassman, I know how you feel…I understand.
Take a deep breath make yourself a LIIT (maybe two?) and repeat after me…“it’s all about the money”
[quote=“Grandmaster Flash and the Furious Five”]Cause it’s all about money, ain’t a damn thing funny
You got to have a con in this land of milk and honey
Don’t push me cause I’m close to the edge
I’m trying not to lose my head
Uh huh ha ha ha
It’s like a jungle sometimes
It makes me wonder how I keep from goin’ under[/quote]
And again in German:
[quote]Denn alles dreht sich um’s Geld, das ist gar nicht witzig
Du musst einen Plan haben in diesem paradiesischen Land
Schubs mich nicht, denn ich stehe nahe am Rand
Ich versuche, nicht den Kopf zu verlieren
Uh huh ha ha ha
Es ist manchmal wie ein Dschungel
Ich frage mich, wie ich’s schaffe, nicht unterzugehen
[/quote]
Bassman, I can sympathize with your consternation, but I am really surprised that over the years you have not learned (perhaps it slipped your mind) that in any dealings with foreigners, the Taiwanese are always right, and the foreigner is always wrong. That is an indiscutable fact based upon a history of over 5000 years of Chinese superiority. Isn’t it amazing that when convenient, the Taiwanese can be either Taiwanese or Chinese?
How strange it is that “saving face” is something that only Asians can understand. We westerners cannot possibly understand that concept.
I have many good and dear Taiwanese friends, but I know that they are always right.
HUH? [/quote] It’s a quote from the Adam Sandler movie, Anger Management. It was taught as the word to say in the anger groups sessions. I read your original post and thought the answer lies in a good night’s sleep.
:bravo:
