Teaching in Taiwan vs. teaching in China

Work Teaching English in Taiwan
21

[quote=“JourneyMatt”][quote=“LURKER”]
China is more fun? Really? Personally, I find it dull here - Taiwan is a much more cheerful and colourful place by contrast, in my humble opinion. If it wasn’t for the fact that I greatly prefer Taiwan to here as a place to be, I would not even consider leaving, given the much lower cost of living.[/quote]

Two questions and a point.

Where in China are you?

I lived there for a year and talking to other foreigners about things like price, people trying to cheat you, finding not shallow girls, etc. you need to pick up a map of WW2 that has the Japanese occupation of China and make sure you don’t live in any of those cities. The Japanese map tends to coincide well with which cities have been glutted with foreign companies and tourists. In the coastal cities you tend to be either a pest or prey as far as the locals are concerned. Inland, they’re still happy to see you and there isn’t enough foreigners for the organized scams of Beijing or Shanghai to pop up. (people will still overcharge you but it’s an opportunistic thing and they will actually go away when you say no one time.) Go west, my son. I lived in Chengdu where I was one of ~4000 foreigners in a city of 11 million. Just as good for access to good stuff but not over saturated with foreigners and thus those who prey on them as Beijing, Shenzhen. or Guangzhou Similarly, it made the job market much better. (I was studying abroad but my brother came and found an ESL job with no experience and makes more than I do on the mainland than I do in Taiwan.

Do you enjoy being a foreigner?

If you go to Taiwan that disappears for good or ill. You’re still foreign of course and kids and people will be pretty happy to see you. But you’re not special beyond that. People won’t go out of the way to buy you drinks in clubs. You won’t get a seat of honor just for being white anymore. (There’s still racism in favor of white skin but nothing near the perks that people foist upon foreigners in China.) You’re going to have to pay covers at clubs. You will miss it.

And the point. You’re getting a job. However interesting Taiwan seems, it’s going to be a lot less interesting once you’re working 23 hours a week +15 hours of prep. School in China is essentially a paid vacation with some Chinese classes. That’s going to stop whether you’re in China in Taiwan, but Taiwan will make you work harder for less money. A bottle of beer costs 4 times more here than it does in China. Yang rou chuan (sheep on a stick) goes 1 to 2 RMB per skewer in China, here its 20 to 30 NTD (5 to 7.5 RMB) . You can have a damn nice apartment in China for pennies. In Taiwan, most beginning ESL teachers can only afford studio apartments. (If you don’t mind living a year in a hotel room it’s great.)

I don’t mean to be negative I do like it here, but China is easier, bigger, cheaper, and a thousand other comparative adjectives that make it a more fun place to live than Taiwan. You’ll see people on this forum complain about how the ESL market in Taiwan used to be a really awesome deal, but it collapsed in the last ten years. China is still in the golden age of massive demand but no supply. It’s place where a foreigner can live like a king doing very little work if they’re willing to leave Beijing. Taiwan ESL is a real job where you have to watch your cash and budget.

The only reason I’m not in China right now is the lack of medical insurance there and I have compelling reasons for never ever being uninsured. If I was perfectly healthy, China would be the place to be.[/quote]

“Where in China are you?”

Nanning, the capital of Guangxi Province. It’s exactly the sort of place you are describing (and promoting): small enough to be cheap and affordable to live in; small enough that you still feel and are perceived as being a novelty. Obscure enough that almost anyone could find an English-teaching job.

“Do you enjoy being a foreigner?”

I’ll admit as much as the next guy that it’s nice sometimes to enjoy special treatment. But to be honest, as a very private (and at times painfully shy) person, I find constantly being the centre of attention - even when the attention is neutral, or positive - to be aggrevating.

In absolute terms (from what I’ve seen on Dave’s, Tealit and elsewhere) pay in Taiwan remains higher than the mainland (although there are a very small number of English teachers in Mainland China pulling in 20,000RMB~ ). Realistically, as someone with a BSc in hand who hasn’t worked a full-time job in his life, I am unlikely to be one of those people.

Your point about teachers in Taiwan having it rougher on the job is something more likely to concern me, since I am entirely new to this business. Perhaps working at a relatively low-stress job here would be easier.

The other side to all of this is that I want to take the TOP-Huayu exam in November, so that I can apply to study in Taiwan next year.

Naturally, it would be very difficult for me to do this if I work here in Mainland China (hmmm, maybe I could get a job in Xiamen and scoot back and over on the ferry :slight_smile: ).

22

From what I understand, the Huayu scholarship has to be applied for through a TECO office in America. You’d have to do it by mail which is just as easy from the mainland as Taiwan.

From everything I’ve heard, the quality of the ESL jobs varies a lot by school, on both the mainland and here. But the Taiwanese have much more experience teaching English and they generally hold you to a higher standard. In China, you’re paid to show up, be a white face, and go home. Any teaching you do is a bonus. In Taiwan, the organized chains can be capricious but they have set curriculums, performance reviews, and a choice to higher someone else that most Chinese schools don’t have. That 10,000 RMB will also go a lot further in China than the same 40000 NTD here. Hell, it’ll go farther than 50 - 60,000 here especially in Nanning.

23

[quote=“JourneyMatt”]From what I understand, the Huayu scholarship has to be applied for through a TECO office in America. You’d have to do it by mail which is just as easy from the mainland as Taiwan.

From everything I’ve heard, the quality of the ESL jobs varies a lot by school, on both the mainland and here. But the Taiwanese have much more experience teaching English and they generally hold you to a higher standard. In China, you’re paid to show up, be a white face, and go home. Any teaching you do is a bonus. In Taiwan, the organized chains can be capricious but they have set curriculums, performance reviews, and a choice to higher someone else that most Chinese schools don’t have. That 10,000 RMB will also go a lot further in China than the same 40000 NTD here. Hell, it’ll go farther than 50 - 60,000 here especially in Nanning.[/quote]

I still question how many people are actually making 10,000 RMB though. When I was looking a year ago most of the ads that your typical buxiban teacher qualified for paid 5-7000 RMB. Or right around a 1000USD. In Taiwan this is the lowest end of the payscale while the limiting factor is getting as many hours as you want (not a problem at all in China).

There is no doubt that you have more buying power in china (if outside of Beijing/shanghai from what I hear).

24

[quote=“Abacus”][quote=“JourneyMatt”]From what I understand, the Huayu scholarship has to be applied for through a TECO office in America. You’d have to do it by mail which is just as easy from the mainland as Taiwan.

From everything I’ve heard, the quality of the ESL jobs varies a lot by school, on both the mainland and here. But the Taiwanese have much more experience teaching English and they generally hold you to a higher standard. In China, you’re paid to show up, be a white face, and go home. Any teaching you do is a bonus. In Taiwan, the organized chains can be capricious but they have set curriculums, performance reviews, and a choice to higher someone else that most Chinese schools don’t have. That 10,000 RMB will also go a lot further in China than the same 40000 NTD here. Hell, it’ll go farther than 50 - 60,000 here especially in Nanning.[/quote]

I still question how many people are actually making 10,000 RMB though. When I was looking a year ago most of the ads that your typical buxiban teacher qualified for paid 5-7000 RMB. Or right around a 1000USD. In Taiwan this is the lowest end of the payscale while the limiting factor is getting as many hours as you want (not a problem at all in China).

There is no doubt that you have more buying power in china (if outside of Beijing/shanghai from what I hear).[/quote]

Many buxibans in Taiwan only provide enough hours to earn $1000 US a month. You can earn the same with a part time university job in China.

25

[quote=“steelersman”]

Many buxibans in Taiwan only provide enough hours to earn $1000 US a month. You can earn the same with a part time university job in China.[/quote]

So you’re comparing a part time buxiban job to a part time university job? Isn’t this apples to oranges?

Again I’ll say that most of the china jobs that I see are offering around 6000 RMB/mo. And not the 10k or the earlier 14k that are being mentioned in this thread. I’m just trying to find some numbers that are remotely factual. All I have are job board postings (a questionable source) and spam emails (another questionable source).

26

One Taiwanese buxiban was offering 12,000RMB a month in Nanjing.

27

Dodgy, advertised-on-the-internet jobs are 4000 – 7000. That would be pretty depressing. Most people I know make 20000-35000 and one makes more. They are very qualified and experienced, though, and have managerial and higher level university positions.

Teaching in Taiwan is really really boring. The schools generally suck, on so many levels. But the sort of suckage in Taiwan is generally transferable to China. Me, I’d rather live in Taiwan than China. I prefer the culture.

28

[quote=“Abacus”][quote=“steelersman”]

Many buxibans in Taiwan only provide enough hours to earn $1000 US a month. You can earn the same with a part time university job in China.[/quote]

So you’re comparing a part time buxiban job to a part time university job? Isn’t this apples to oranges?

Again I’ll say that most of the china jobs that I see are offering around 6000 RMB/mo. And not the 10k or the earlier 14k that are being mentioned in this thread. I’m just trying to find some numbers that are remotely factual. All I have are job board postings (a questionable source) and spam emails (another questionable source).[/quote]

Well if you can get a visa, most part time work in large cities pays 150 to 200RMB. That is why many people get some university job and work part time in a language school or teach business classes for 200 to 300RMB an hour.

29

Here is an example of one job advertised in Hangzhou! 712NT an hour.

Time: 13 July to 7 Aug, 2010
Every Monday to Saturday, prior to who are available on Tuesday/Thursday/Saturday, 8:00-10:00 in the morning
150RMB/Hour

=Native speaker with experience in teaching College students and Adults=

Location: C Building 13, 103 South Hushu Road 湖墅南路103号C区13楼
Contact: Mr. Le 15988491698

Anyways that job would pay around 35,000NT a month on top of a 30,000NT University job. That would come out to 65,000NT a month for around 24 hours a week. That is pretty much the same as working 24 hours a week in a buxiban. It may even be more relaxing since you will not hear creaming kids all day.

30

To OP: All in all, fair to say…your answer is China.

31

Almost. If it was so obvious a choice NOT to go, then what are all these people doing over there in Taiwan (I’m referring to the populations of both Formosa and Forumosa)?

Truth be told, I’m quite likely to end up over there regardless of what advice is posted in this thread because my heart is in it. I may well be back crying to you all in a few months time here on Forumosa about how I hate my shitty sweatshop of a buxiban and hate Taiwan, but there you go.

While I’m grateful for the advice I’ve received so far in this thread, what I’d like most of all are accounts of personal experiences from people who have worked both over here in Mainland China and over there in Taiwan. How was it different in terms of job expectations? Did the higher cost of living in Taiwan make living there less pleasant than here? Or on the other hand, does the higher level of social, political and infrastructural development make Taiwan on the whole a more pleasant place to live than Mainland China, despite the higher costs that go along with it?

I’ve also recently had the idea of working in Shenzhen or Guangdong Province in general - more developed than most of Mainland China, also offers the prospect of shopping in HK.

Thoughts?

32

[quote=“LURKER”]

The mainland is also on the table, but although it’s the best emerging market for English teachers along with Vietnam, I don’t actually like it here that much. Vietnam is more or less out because of the fact that I don’t speak the language.[/quote]

It’s much easier to get around here in Vietnam without speaking the language than in Taiwan. There are a huge number of language schools and feasibly an explosion in job opportunities if they enforce the work permit law which just came in. If you have a CELTA cert and a degree, you’ll be fine. The big schools (ILA, Apollo) also offer CELTA programmes.

33

The market here is saturated. I have returned to Taiwan and I have been dismayed how long it has taken me to get work. I have over 20 years of experience in TEFL including 6 years in Taiwan in the nineties and after arriving in January it is only now I’m beginning to get enough work to survive. I have to stay here for family reasons but if not for them I would be trying for China. If you have little or no experience teaching but you are still determined to come here be prepared for a hard struggle. A TEFL diploma and degree just won’t cut it any more.

34

Really, Taiwanlightzone? I’m looking for about 15-20 hrs per week, as my main idea for the move is to start learning Mandarin. I’d consider moving to the Mainland after a year, but I was thinking Taiwan was a good transitional place.

35

The problem is probably not that there is no work available. There is work out there. You are probably older than what most buxibans want. Maybe you are applying for business English jobs. I do believe that business English teaching in Taipei is very limited.

36

Yes I think my age has also had something to do with it as I also applied for teaching children posts and heard very little. But bear in mind, when I was here in the nineties older people had little trouble in getting work. My point is that the situation has really changed and in particular I am concerned that people with little or no experience in the West who may be desperate for work, are getting an out-of-date picture of the prospects here and will come, wasting time and money and perhaps even get themselves into quite a desperate situation. If you are determined to come folks, at least make sure you have a return ticket (sometimes people get through immigration on a one-way only) and enough for at least two months.
If you still don’t believe me go to Dave’s ESL Cafe, look up the Taiwan section and read the story of a poster called Rooster2006 who took something like six months before he landed a job teaching children. (thread ‘Yes!’ page 3 and ‘What would you do if you had to find a job in three days’ page 5, ‘Most desperate place in Taiwan’ page 5 ‘Getting scared about Taiwan’ page 6, info correct at time of writing. Also a thread on page 8 by a Mr Rupert Shellgame ‘influx of foreigners, crashing economy’ food for thought though it may not leave you with much of an appetite.) The titles alone should be enough to scare you and the details are quite a saga (could’ve been written by Stephen King). This was at the height of the Taiwan recession in 2009 but my own experience suggests that right now this really is not a good place for newbies and indeed is tough enough for experienced teachers. Rooster’s story was unheard of just two short years ago. If you really, really want to experience Taiwan and are very determined then come. But if you’re simply looking for a job to tide you over until things are better back home, I sincerely suggest you look at other places. It’s 2010 folks not 1990.

37

Somewhatgone, your plan would have been perfectly feasible a few years ago. If I remember correctly I was reading on this and other forums about Mandarin learners doing that and it was pretty much a done deal, land at the airport, start their course and then find a few hours work, no problem, to pay the bills. Perhaps there are still people doing that but from what the forums are saying, other teachers I’ve spoken to, the hard economic times (recovering maybe but we’re not there yet) and the simple fact of how many foreigners there are around suggest that it’s not something you can take for granted anymore. I suggest you do your due diligence berore you arrive here. I like Taiwan and I’m not trying to discourage people for the hell of it but being in a strange country, a newbie, and the money slowly running out is no fun. You might be better considering China if you need an income while you study.

38

Actually Rooster had a job when he landed and was fired. I will say that working in Taiwan is a little problematic since sometimes employers will cancel your ARC on a wim.

39

Yes, if that is what you are looking for then go to China. You can get $1000 US a month, an apartment, and airfare by just submitting a resume, diploma, and a passport from the US, Canada, England, Australia, or New Zealand.

40

Steelersman
‘Actually Rooster had a job when he landed and was fired’.

But that doesn’t take away from my point. In the old days he would have got another job easily.