They go by the euphemistic term Zones Urbaines Sensibles, or Sensitive Urban Zones, with the even more antiseptic acronym ZUS, and there are 751 of them as of last count. They are convienently listed on one long webpage, complete with street demarcations and map delineations.
What are they? Those places in France that the French state does not control. They range from two zones in the medieval town of Carcassone to twelve in the heavily Muslim town of Marseilles, with hardly a town in France lacking in its ZUS. The ZUS came into existence in late 1996 and according to a 2004 estimate, nearly 5 million people live in them.
Comment: A more precise name for these zones would be Dar al-Islam, the place where Muslims rule. (November 14, 2006)
Nov. 28, 2006 update: For an insight into how bad things are, the police in Lyons demonstrated on Nov. 9, denouncing “violence against the forces of order.” Things have reached a pretty sad state when the police have to demonstrate in the streets against the criminals.[/quote]
Hang on, I just checked with a couple of places I know and I’m afraid this is a silly beat up. The article suggests these are no go zones, and while I do believe there are suburbs which fit that bill, Porte de Montmartre, okay, a tad rough and ready perhaps, is a very busy and popular place. Fontaine au Roi is in the 11th Arondisement near République, which is a very trendy little area of Paris and Porte Saint Denis is where the Arc de Triomphe is! I see they’ve also classified a whole block near Père Lachaise, the cemetery which houses that clod from The Doors, among others.
[quote=“Huang Guang Chen”]Hang on, I just checked with a couple of places I know and I’m afraid this is a silly beat up. The article suggests these are no go zones, and while I do believe there are suburbs which fit that bill, Porte de Montmartre, okay, a tad rough and ready perhaps, is a very busy and popular place. Fontaine au Roi is in the 11th Arondisement near République, which is a very trendy little area of Paris and Porte Saint Denis is where the Arc de Triomphe is! I see they’ve also classified a whole block near Père Lachaise, the cemetery which houses that clod from The Doors, among others.
HG[/quote]
Yep, well, some guys responding on his site say these are “urban renewal” zones. Check the comments page.
Ha ha ha! And this Daniel Pipes is supposedly a “counter-terrorism analyst.” Maaate, from what I see and know of the places on that list in Paris they are where you would really, really want to buy a trendy flat!
More interesting is the predictable drone of hate from some of those commentaries. Priceless!
Now forgive me, English, she is not my first a language, but in zee map below, zee fleshy coloured sections refer to hot beds of fascist ant-christ action, while zee green denotes relative safety. Clearly zee States of United are going to, how you say, hell in a ham bag, non?
[quote=“Huang Guang Chen”]Ha ha ha! And this Daniel Pipes is supposedly a “counter-terrorism analyst.” Maaate, from what I see and know of the places on that list in Paris they are where you would really, really want to buy a trendy flat!
More interesting is the predictable drone of hate from some of those commentaries. Priceless!
Now forgive me, English, she is not my first a language, but in zee map below, zee fleshy coloured sections refer to hot beds of fascist ant-christ action, while zee green denotes relative safety. Clearly zee States of United are going to, how you say, hell in a ham bag, non?
HG[/quote]
And Ze Blue part is free territory for tze people fleeding zee ZUS areas in La douce France!
These are projected zones of urban enterprise…not zones of urban terrorism.
Those would be the moslem arrondisements.
But these are just zones in need of economic growth.
Oh…and to criticize Daniel Pipes with out a specific reference is to expose ones lack of knowledge regarding his work.
Oh I know who he is alright, and I’ve seen his work, there’s your Swiss cheese right there! Frankly, that comment by someone supposedly au fait with terror and Islamic terror related issues is simply unpardonable.
[quote=“dablindfrog”]JDS…how many times will i need to use the “don’t throw stones when you live in a glass house” retort when you post or start a thread??? news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/spl/hi/p … html/1.stm[/quote]Th thread is about France.
Its been noted that the interpretation of these zones was not as first suggested. Should we continue with articles about the continued fire-bombing in the suburbs of Paris? It is easily done.
PALM BEACH, Fla. – President Bush believes America should be more of an idea than an actual place, a Republican congressman told WND in an exclusive interview.
“People have to understand what we’re talking about here. The president of the United States is an internationalist,” said Rep. Tom Tancredo, R-Colo. “He is going to do what he can to create a place where the idea of America is just that – it’s an idea. It’s not an actual place defined by borders. I mean this is where this guy is really going.”
Tancredo lashed out at the White House’s lack of action in securing U.S. borders, and said efforts to merge the U.S. with both Mexico and Canada is not a fantasy.
[…]
He pointed to Florida’s largest city as an example of how the nature of America can be changed by uncontrolled immigration.
“Look at what has happened to Miami. It has become a Third World country,” he said. “You just pick it up and take it and move it someplace. You would never know you’re in the United States of America. You would certainly say you’re in a Third World country.”
He said quickly changing demographics can cause big problems, and specifically cited the “Islamization of Europe” in recent years which has led to conflict across the continent. [/quote]
[quote=“dablindfrog”]JDS…how many times will i need to use the “don’t throw stones when you live in a glass house” retort when you post or start a thread???
It may not be fair to ask JDS to comment on how many times you will feel the need to resort to that particular style of response, dablindfrog.
From my own perspective, I don’t see why one would ever feel compelled to do so, unless perhaps one is an 8 year-old on a playground and is powerless to resist the urge to turn every statement made by another into a bickering exchange of insults and "my father could beat up your father :raspberry: " silliness.
JDS did not say “France has problems with urban crime and the US does not.” He (or this Pipes fellow I suppose, to be more accurate) said “France has problems with urban crime.”
If JDS had said “Wow, based one this article, it looks like Hsinchu has a pretty serious crime problem”, would you feel the need to ‘retort’ with “Oh yeah? Well look at this other story I found – looks like Ying Ge has a crime problem too!”, or would it be possible to just discuss Hsinchu (i.e. the topic that the original poster started the thread to discuss)?
The fact that other posters in this thread were able to reply saying things like (paraphrasing) “Based on my experience, I don’t find the author’s description of those zones to be very accurate” does, fortunately, at least give one some confidence that it is indeed possible to discuss some event/situation in Country X without the need to turn the thread into some sort of childish schoolyard argument about whether Country X is ‘better than’ Country Y.
The places shown for Paris are just about right. I lived in Paris for 10 years and that was a long time ago, these places were already considered “hot” to be after dark.
I can’t say for the other cities.
i’d agree with you if JDS’s post was a one-off,but he seem to enjoy taking jabs at “la france et ses habitants”,
if he was equally critical of his own backyard i’d happily entertain his call for debate.
[quote=“dablindfrog”]i’d agree with you if JDS’s post was a one-off,but he seem to enjoy taking jabs at “la france et ses habitants”,
if he was equally critical of his own backyard i’d happily entertain his call for debate.[/quote]
Well, I think that’s pretty silly. “You can’t talk about my country’s weak points unless you talk about yours first,” sounds a lot like “Show my yours and I’ll show you mine.”:lol:
The last I knew, no major American cities were being overrun by “youth” burning cars and and people alive in buses, for months at a time.
What’s the firebombed car total this month?
I am more than willing to discuss the weaknesses of the USA, but I don’t think my doing so should be a precursor to discussing France’s problems.
And what? Did I use “Ze” with ze wrong accent? Merde! :raspberry:
I like France and would like to visit one day; I just don’t know if I should bring my BBQ apron.
[quote=“igorveni”]The places shown for Paris are just about right. I lived in Paris for 10 years and that was a long time ago, these places were already considered “hot” to be after dark.
I can’t say for the other cities.[/quote]
I looked at the “Departement 59” as I frequently visited cities there. Makes sense for big cities as Roubaix (a pure ghetto) Lille etc.
The one which was “over the edege” (and so there will be at least 100) was “Teteghem”.
I know that small village very well and even know the area. There are some 25 Maghreb families living there, but never ever they were involved in any incident. So, this smells as discrimination to me. Those people work hard in a metal factory near the belgian border, escaped the ghetto’s and are more French than some local citizens.
I refer to my earlier postings about the Rioting in France a few months back. France IS over-reacting , or at least JDS is on a wrong track.
I only put the link and article up. I know very little about the inner workings of France. I found the number of “no go zones” (which the article described as areas where the police do not venture into) at 751 to be large. I wondered about the veracity of the number.
I did not scream “FRANCE IS BEING OVERRUN BY YOUTHS!!!”
So what you in-the-know folk are saying is that most of these areas are ghettos?
No, they’re not ghettoes at all. Of the places I saw and recognised there are a reasonable amount of immigrants of all hues, but also many middle class French folks. The areas mentioned in Paris are being rather rapidly gentrified.
I only put the link and article up. I know very little about the inner workings of France. I found the number of “no go zones” (which the article described as areas where the police do not venture into) at 751 to be large. I wondered about the veracity of the number.
I did not scream “FRANCE IS BEING OVERRUN BY YOUTHS!!!”
So what you in-the-know folk are saying is that most of these areas are ghettos?[/quote]
Yes and no. Some areas are ghettos (at least the places I know as some streets in Roubaix etc), or so called “banlieu’s” where there is a higher risk.
More risk for the cops getting a stone in their window shield than just walking around yourself.
These areas (not all) are “hot’ in terms of possible incidents, but they should not be called “no-go zones”
And yes, 751 of them is really really over the top.
If it would be called a 'concentration of the Maghreb community” it would be fair, but calling it "muslim controlled’ areas is Waaaaaay to much.
