The case for Taiwan independence in 1958

Politics Taiwan Politics
41

[quote=“mr_boogie”][quote]
There is also a strong moral argument for a free and independent Formosa. The Cairo
Conference handed Formosa to China without consulting the Formosan people, and thus was in
violation of the Atlantic Charter and the spirit of the United Nations Charter.
[/quote]

without any doubt, the best counter argument I saw against the Cairo Conference, along with that one that the declaration was not signed…[/quote]

The Cairo Declaration is irrelevant because territory can only be transferred from one state to another through a legally signed, ratified, and executed treaty between two or more states in which the transfer is specially stated. Japan gave up sovereignty over Taiwan with the San Francisco Peace Treaty, but there is NO mechanism for transfer to China.

42

[quote=“ludahai”]
The Cairo Declaration is irrelevant because territory can only be transferred from one state to another through a legally signed, ratified, and executed treaty between two or more states in which the transfer is specially stated. Japan gave up sovereignty over Taiwan with the San Francisco Peace Treaty, but there is NO mechanism for transfer to China.[/quote]

If Taiwan’s sovereignty was not transferred to China, it had to had remained with the US. And thus legally, Taiwan would not be an independent country, contrary to what many people in Taiwan like to say.

So, the point about Cairo declaration not having given Taiwan to China would be just as much an arguement against China’s ownership of Taiwan as it is an arguement against Taiwan independence, as similarily, there was no mechanism for creating a Taiwanese state.

Furthermore, if the US still holds the rights to Taiwan, Taiwan’s fate will be completely in the hands of the US, and not in the hands of the Taiwanese people. Think about that for moment. One of the things the US can do is to legally give Taiwan back to China via bilateral treaty(and without Taiwan’s partcipation). Unlikely, sure, but not inconceivable when you consider that was the original intent in Cairo but wasn’t done only because of the on-going Chinese civil war. With the PRC having long emerged as the sole legitimate presentative of China, there’s no question who Taiwan should be given to. Plus, why wouldn’t the US want to give up a hot potato that is Taiwan?

43

So your only option is giving it back to China? That way, most countries wouldn’t be even formed, because one way or another they have been occupied in the past by a foreign country.

The CORRECT thing is do what East Timor did: vote either for staying as a region of Indonesia (being Indonesia the invader in this case) or vote for Independence (there was no option for them to vote to become a region of Portugal). The massive affluence to the polling stations and the results represent the true will of the people, and Indonesian where not considered.

Do that in Taiwan, and the results might be the same.

44

Actually, since Taiwan is already de-facto independent, it makes no sense to vote for independence.

The options for Taiwan is unification with China or status quo(i.e. to continue to maintain de-facto independence).

There had been many polls taken on this matter in Taiwan, and they all show that most people want to maintain the status quo.

45

[quote=“ABC”]There had already been informal votes taken on this matter in Taiwan, and they all show that most people want to maintain the status quo.[/quote] And why do you think that is the case? Are you implying that if they could choose freely - without coercion - between becoming an independent country represented in the UN or the status quo, that they would choose the status quo?

46

That’s the case because the majority of the people in Taiwan want status quo. Who’s coercing them? Like there was anyone who didn’t know they were not actually making policy changes but just giving their opinion. Of course they chose freely, just like people on this forum would have answered freely if the same question is asked here.

But I do wonder, what if a situation emerges in Taiwan where most people in the south want independence, while people in the north want unification? Does this mean the best solution according to the will of the people is to demarcate Taiwan-perhaps along the Zhuoshui River-where southern Taiwan would have some kind of formal independence, while northern Taiwan is reunified with China? Would the TI people be satisfied with half of Taiwan? I’m pretty sure China won’t be.

47

That’s the case because the majority of the people in Taiwan want status quo. Who’s coercing them? Like there was anyone who didn’t know they were not actually making policy changes but just giving their opinion. Of course they chose freely, just like people on this forum would have answered freely if the same question is asked here.

But I do wonder, what if a situation emerges in Taiwan where most people in the south want independence, while people in the north want unification? Does this mean the best solution according to the will of the people is to demarcate Taiwan-perhaps along the Zhuoshui River-where southern Taiwan would have some kind of formal independence, while northern Taiwan is reunified with China? Would the TI people be satisfied with half of Taiwan? I’m pretty sure China won’t be.[/quote]

Er, let’s say the north is Taipei, Taipei County, Taoyuan and Xinzhu counties. About 10,000,000 people. Let’s say every single pro-unification person lives in the north. Even if 20% of the population of all Taiwan leans this way (which is ridiculously generous - 10% would be better) that means that 4.6 million pro-unification citizens exist in the north. Still not even half the northern population. So by any standards of fairness they would lose in a fair referendum on independence even in the north let alone the whole country.

As for who or what is coercing the people of Taiwan: the PRC and its 1500 missiles and an anti-secession law.

God, how pathetically hard you have to work for your 50 cents. :laughing:

48

This line is normally used by those whove been watching CCTV and think its views actually reflect some semblance of reality in Taiwan.

Come on - get your visa and visit - you’ll find that in general most of Taiwan is status quo, (because that is the only option), and the countryside is pro-independence, (not just the south).

Everytime they have to use the name Chinese Taipei, select, “Taiwan, Province of China”, on a web-site, get blocked from organizations like the WHO, get followed around by a mainlander all day when they attend a World Environmental Organization even as an observer… etc…

Makes the 憤青 feel good, but just annoys most Taiwanese. Admittedly small things, but demonstrates quite clearly to most Taiwanese what would happen to them if reunification happened tomorrow.

49

I think you really need to be with Taiwanese people to see how they really feel. How about we start calling China another name, Chinese another name, and changing every state owned company from China to something else? How would you feel?

You might not think this, but Taiwan is pretty much a colony, where a minority rules the majority through establishment (as can be seen easily by this weekend by-elections in Da’an). People here vote to maintain the establishment, as they invested so much (read as you want) on it. And the fact that the government asked the civil servants to vote en-masse (Da-an has a very big quantity of them) shows up how the KMT runs the show. Even like that, winning by 9K votes in there (which is a an area known for being quite blue) shows up that people are not as “Chinese” as you think.

50

[quote=“Elegua”]Everytime they have to use the name Chinese Taipei, select, “Taiwan, Province of China”, on a web-site, get blocked from organizations like the WHO, get followed around by a mainlander all day when they attend a World Environmental Organization even as an observer… etc…

Makes the 憤青 feel good, but just annoys most Taiwanese. Admittedly small things, but demonstrates quite clearly to most Taiwanese what would happen to them if reunification happened tomorrow.[/quote]

I wonder if you read one of my post on the previous page. What would happen to Taiwan after unification is that all those annoying things you said will go away. That’s right, after unification Taiwan will be free to use just “Taiwan”. Yeah, I know, it’s really ironic. But the reason China won’t allow it now is because they don’t want to lend any legitimacy to Taiwan’s claim of being an independent country. That won’t be the case after unification, just like China don’t have a problem with Hong Kong using just “Hong Kong” in international organizations, because no one is going to use that and say somehow HK is independent.

First, what missiles? Second you really think people care about any of that when they’re answering some poll question about their opinion? So according to you, time after time people responded they want the status quo, but none of that was their true opinion. People were only saying they want status quo because of China. I mean, pssst, it’s amazing how little you think of the intelligence of the Taiwanese people. That would be like me saying all the people that said they want independence were nuts like CSB so they don’t have to be taken seriously.

[quote=“mr_boogie”]I think you really need to be with Taiwanese people to see how they really feel. How about we start calling China another name, Chinese another name, and changing every state owned company from China to something else? How would you feel?
[/quote]People would feel bad. That’s why most people in Taiwan were against CSB’s de-sinification campaign.

51

Oh…no. It’s not 50 cents, my pay has now been raised to a dollar. And it’s not hard at all. Takes me very little time to come up with my post. Plus, it’s something I would have done anyway, might as well get paid while I’m typing.

Yeah, I know. Sucks to be you. I’m making money for doing something that I would have done anyway, While you and everyon else are all posting for free.(or are you? Won’t surprise me if the CIA is paying people to post on-line too, maybe you’re pulling a paycheck from them?)

52

I think it was the way it was done, rather than what was being done. Both the KMT and DPP seem to make this mistake, for the renaming and tearing down of statues and so on, it would have been better to go through the LY. If it was all blue and you couldnt get your way, put it in your party manifesto, use it to create a majority of your own, if it has the support of the people it will. Also, Ma not asking for LY review of an agreement he is trying to sign with China is wrong, the process is vitally important, the secrecy surrounding discussions i think is unsettling.

I also think you are are of touch with reality in Taiwan to discuss North and South issues that may divide the country over China. It is perhaps on this issue alone that unites everyone. Those who want the Status Quo factor in time into Taiwan/China relations, they think with time a more opportune moment might present itself for independence rather than full steam ahead like the DPP. Very few actually want to unify with China.

53

No it doesn’t. Hong Kong has given up its right as to even what ships, (warships in this case), visit its port and frequent its bars. :laughing: In any case, as others have pointed out; it’s Hong Kong, SAR. The Taiwanese know that under a One Country, Two Systems arrangement, they would be subject to a large amount of interference from Beijing.

[quote]First, what missiles? Second you really think people care about any of that when they’re answering some poll question about their opinion? So according to you, time after time people responded they want the status quo, but none of that was their true opinion. People were only saying they want status quo because of China. I mean, pssst, it’s amazing how little you think of the intelligence of the Taiwanese people. That would be like me saying all the people that said they want independence were nuts like CSB so they don’t have to be taken seriously.
[/quote]

Err…you must be quoting me from a different thread - 'cause I don’t see it. But, I do think that people want the status quo genuinely - because its the closest they can come to owning their own destiny. Were the threat of force, in part in the form of missles not there, you might be getting a different answer. Most Taiwanese know how China works and while they might live & work there, they are glad they are not China Chinese.

No. You mainlanders always confuse this point. People are pissed with the DPP because the failed at reform, not because of de-sinification. Most Taiwanese understand that is a shell game and status quo is the only reality. The Taiwanese are nothing if not practical. The most recent wave of Chinese are not the first, nor the last of many waves of outsiders to try to run things in Taiwan. Just like you are the latest of a line of shills from across the way full of Irredentist dreams and making your 1$ (your colleagues must envy you). Taiwanese concentrate on getting by with the powers that be.

54

[quote=“ABC”] China don’t have a problem with Hong Kong using just “Hong Kong” in international organizations, because no one is going to use that and say somehow HK is independent.
[/quote]

You keep on repeating this. Hong Kong does not participate in international organizations under the name “Hong Kong”, as established under the Basic Law it must participate under the name “Hong Kong, China”. It also competes in the Olympics under the name “Hong Kong, China”.

I am sure the PRC would be delighted if Taiwan were to participate under the name “Taiwan, China”. “Chinese Taipei” is a compromise, not the PRC’s preferred wording.

55

“Taiwan, province of China”(which is how Taiwan is listed in some places) would be just as nice. But of course that’s because China doesn’t want to lend any legitmacy to Taiwan being a country by allowing it to participate as Taiwan. If unification is achieved and Taiwan says they want to use just Taiwan, China won’t have a problem with that. TI won’t be an issue at that point.

56

Actually, the “Taiwan, Province of China” is an ISO convention, disputed by Taiwan in court (Taiwan already won the first trial, so get ready to change that).

And in case you need some reality check from your alternate reality world:

Today, in TaipeiTimes… http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/front/archives/2009/03/31/2003439813

57

Oh…no. It’s not 50 cents, my pay has now been raised to a dollar. And it’s not hard at all. Takes me very little time to come up with my post. Plus, it’s something I would have done anyway, might as well get paid while I’m typing.

Yeah, I know. Sucks to be you. I’m making money for doing something that I would have done anyway, While you and everyon else are all posting for free.(or are you? Won’t surprise me if the CIA is paying people to post on-line too, maybe you’re pulling a paycheck from them?)[/quote]
$1/post - not bad, actually. I’m gonna have to have a word with the CIA about their rates…
Well, keep it going - “to get rich is glorious” as they say back in the motherland. You have some big shoes to fill for AC_Dropout, who has apparently posted his way to financial independence and moved on to bigger and better things.

58

[quote=“mr_boogie”][quote]
During a press conference at the forum on Friday in Wuxi, Jiangsu Province, Hsing Yun said that “both sides of the Taiwan Strait belong to one family. There are no Taiwanese in Taiwan and Taiwanese are all Chinese.”

“Which Taiwanese is not Chinese?” he asked. “They are Chinese just like you are. We are all brothers and sisters.”

Hsing Yun also said that opening the forum in China and closing it in Taiwan was especially meaningful because it would enhance cross-strait exchanges and help the unification of the two sides, the Hong Kong-based newspaper Ta Kung Pao reported on Saturday.

“The more [cross-strait] exchange we have, the more mixed we will be. Then we won’t be able to distinguish who’s Mainland [Chinese] and who’s Taiwanese — and we will naturally become unified,” Hsing Yun was quoted as saying.
…
Young said it was ironic that China’s State Administration for Religious Affairs chief Ye Xiaowen (葉小文) attended the forum.

“Ye is the main person behind the new law regulating reincarnation of monks in Tibetan Buddhism, which destroys a core tradition in Tibetan Buddhism,” she said.

Tibetan Buddhists believe that spiritual leaders return through reincarnation. A set of procedures exists to identify reincarnated spiritual leaders. However, China adopted a law last year that stipulates that all reincarnations have to receive state approval.
…
At the beginning of the forum, the 11th Panchen Lama — the second-highest Tibetan spiritual leader appointed by the Chinese government in 1995, but rejected by most Tibetan Buddhists — delivered a speech praising the CCP, saying it had brought prosperity to Tibet and that Chinese enjoy full freedom of religion under CCP rule.

In May 1995, the Dalai Lama chose a six-year-old boy as the 11th Panchen Lama. The boy and his family disappeared soon after and have not been heard from since.
[/quote]

Today, in TaipeiTimes… http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/front/archives/2009/03/31/2003439813[/quote]
Ahhhh, no big deal. In his highly enlightened state he has merely perceived the reality that we are all “One Buddhist”.
I heard that at his monastery he has already posted directives saying, “No reincarnations without prior written approval”.

59

I guess you need CCP approval to get reincarnatted also, being that those approvals are subject to your contributions to the CCP cause…

60

Well my free wheeling lifestyle was achieved long before posting on f.com. But atlas, I’m not immune from the finacial downturn either, so I have to think of more creative way to squeeze blood out of stone.

However, you know on many of my documents that grant me ownership of various material things in Taiwan, they read “Republic of China province of Taiwan” or they would read that after I pay a translator for an offical translation.

I think you’re using the wrong conjunction. People are upset at the DPP for failing at reform, in addition to their so call de-sinification objective.

Come on many average Taiwanese with no political leaning, found the DPP claims of Dr. Sun to being a foreigner, and trying to defame the Chiang family in the history books to be somewhat inflammatory. Unless one is affliated with the original 375 Japanese family left over from the occupation, why would any Taiwanese take de-sinification of Taiwan seriously. Unless one is illiterate and not well educated in Chinese to begin with, the task of de-sinification is almost impossible to comprehend.