Interesting, one of the groups went to the Chung Tai Chan Monastery in Puli. It’s a fantastic site and deserves to be more well-known. The master though does supports unification if I remember correctly.
[quote=“ac_dropout”][quote=“Bubba 2 Guns”][quote=“ac_dropout”]You’d be surprised where the shortest distance between two points on a curved surface would take you.
However, HK is not on that point between Shanghai and Taoyuan. Which it the route I’d be most interested in.[/quote]
On a non-Euclidian model it’s an arc–I only knew that because it’s a punchline to my favorite joke.[/quote]
Did it involve a young and lovely lady named Polly Nomial?
Who’s curvilinear coordinates would fixate any man’s attention?
:[/quote]
There are only two woman in this world who have curviinear coordintes… One is my wife. But she’s way to hot for you and she knows what a blind scanning satellite receiver is…
[color=blue]The other is a lovelly chick with a stick.[/color]
[quote=“reztrop”]
Come to think of it, the idea of tour groups, however flawed it may be, does have merit if you look at both sides’ point of view. You wouldn’t want mainland tourists to completely travel at will throughout Taiwan because there is always the possibility that some of these tourists can pose as ‘undercover tourists’ and conduct ulterior motives in Taiwan. In other words, having the ability to move throughout Taiwan unconstrained can also pose a national security threat to ROC from a skeptical Taiwanese perspective.
And there is the threat of defection from the Beijing perspective.[/quote]
You seem to be living in a time that is different than the rest of us. Your comments are just so anachronistic they seem to come from a time when both the ROC and PRC still wanted military conquest of the other.
Nowadays Taiwan is more concerned about mainland tourists overstaying on their travel, and not that they could be agents for the Chinese government. And frankly, if allowing the freedom of movement is somehow a risk to national security, so can any form of cross strait relation- as any one from China(not just tourists) have the possibility of being an agent. Taiwan would almost have to go back to martial law to eliminate those possibilities.
And I don’t think defection is a concern from the Beijing perspective. You do know that China is an open country, right? that Chinese people are free to go abroad to travel, study, or work, right? If anyone wants to “defect”, they can easily just go to another country. And I don’t think Beijing really cares if some of its ordinary citizens want to move to another country either.
[quote=“ABC”][quote=“reztrop”]
Come to think of it, the idea of tour groups, however flawed it may be, does have merit if you look at both sides’ point of view. You wouldn’t want mainland tourists to completely travel at will throughout Taiwan because there is always the possibility that some of these tourists can pose as ‘undercover tourists’ and conduct ulterior motives in Taiwan. In other words, having the ability to move throughout Taiwan unconstrained can also pose a national security threat to ROC from a skeptical Taiwanese perspective.
And there is the threat of defection from the Beijing perspective.[/quote]
You seem to be living in a time that is different than the rest of us. Your comments are just so anachronistic they seem to come from a time when both the ROC and PRC still wanted military conquest of the other.
Nowadays Taiwan is more concerned about mainland tourists overstaying on their travel, and not that they could be agents for the Chinese government. And frankly, if allowing the freedom of movement is somehow a risk to national security, so can any form of cross strait relation- as any one from China(not just tourists) have the possibility of being an agent. Taiwan would almost have to go back to martial law to eliminate those possibilities.
And I don’t think defection is a concern from the Beijing perspective. You do know that China is an open country, right? that Chinese people are free to go abroad to travel, study, or work, right? If anyone wants to “defect”, they can easily just go to another country. And I don’t think Beijing really cares if some of its ordinary citizens want to move to another country either.[/quote]
China doesnt want its citizens overstaying in large numbers and creating a problem. IT understands TAiwan is very crowded and cant take zillions of its citizens overflowing the place.
And its true that China doesnt care to lose a few of its so many people.
i talked to this guy here in Berkeley. Hes been here over 8 years with his wife. Both are from China. They are considering to get US citizenship (they have qualified now) but are concerned that they would then lose their PRC citizenship and are not so sure they want that.
Apparently unlike ROC citizens, PRC citizens lose their citizenship if they gain another, like US citizenship. The ROC doesnt care at all what other citizenship you get (except maybe PRC) and you retain your ROC one.
[quote]You seem to be living in a time that is different than the rest of us. Your comments are just so anachronistic they seem to come from a time when both the ROC and PRC still wanted military conquest of the other.
Nowadays Taiwan is more concerned about mainland tourists overstaying on their travel, and not that they could be agents for the Chinese government. And frankly, if allowing the freedom of movement is somehow a risk to national security, so can any form of cross strait relation- as any one from China(not just tourists) have the possibility of being an agent. Taiwan would almost have to go back to martial law to eliminate those possibilities.
And I don’t think defection is a concern from the Beijing perspective. You do know that China is an open country, right? that Chinese people are free to go abroad to travel, study, or work, right? If anyone wants to “defect”, they can easily just go to another country. And I don’t think Beijing really cares if some of its ordinary citizens want to move to another country either.[/quote]
Your thinking is naive. You underestimate the mentality of the CCP, and those strongly affiliated with the PRC. Your thinking is too idealistic in the viewpoint that both sides being “Chinese compatriots” where most PRC citizens respect the ROC as a legitimate entity.
If you think PRC will use military force only in a provoked situation (declaration of independence), think again. Formal TI is unlikely to happen, but reunification is even more unlikely. And Beijing has repeatedly said it will bring Taiwan into its fold militarily if Taiwan permanently drags its feet on reunification, which is unlikely to occur considering political liberalization remains out of reach on the mainland, and that “One country, two systems” won’t work for Taiwan. Not to mention that the % of people in Taiwan who identify themselves as “Taiwanese, and not Chinese” will only increase over time, a demographic that Beijing is concerned about.
Yes I know that freedom of thought and expression is heavily subdued under government propaganda, state-sponsored nationalism, and censorship. Being able to travel back and forth across the country, and between countries by no means define a country as being “open”. If you think being an “open” country means having the political freedom to individually act and think independently from nationalistic influences, then I’m afraid that you’re living out of sync with the times.
There is a big difference between being able to move freely with your legs, versus what’s inside the head of the person who’s moving those legs.
I’ve heard true accounts of PRC citizens (and I’m talking intelligent ones here) wanting to rip apart the ROC flag or bashing the ROC on Taiwan as a legitimate entity. To them, Taiwan losing its democracy and being integrated into the motherland is better than Taiwan keeping its democracy and being separate forever.
I didn’t know fear mongering was in these days. 1 million ROC citizens live and work in the PRC on a permenant basis now.
As for average PRC citizen wanted to bash ROC flags and what not. They can goto Nanjing where there are museums with ROC flags and KMT symbols everywhere.
The average Chinese is more interested in showing that China is becoming an establish political and economic pole in the region that can be an effective counterbalance to the US.
The average Taiwanese is happy to see Taiwan progress towards the 3 links.
This is common knowledge among the average Chinese and Taiwanese. Too bad this board doesn’t have more of them to share these optimistic views of the region.
That’s like sticking your head in a magazine and ogling your gal in Maxim .
[quote=“reztrop”]
Your thinking is naive. You underestimate the mentality of the CCP, and those strongly affiliated with the PRC. Your thinking is too idealistic in the viewpoint that both sides being “Chinese compatriots” where most PRC citizens respect the ROC as a legitimate entity.
If you think PRC will use military force only in a provoked situation (declaration of independence), think again. Formal TI is unlikely to happen, but reunification is even more unlikely. And Beijing has repeatedly said it will bring Taiwan into its fold militarily if Taiwan permanently drags its feet on reunification, which is unlikely to occur considering political liberalization remains out of reach on the mainland, and that “One country, two systems” won’t work for Taiwan. Not to mention that the % of people in Taiwan who identify themselves as “Taiwanese, and not Chinese” will only increase over time, a demographic that Beijing is concerned about.[/quote]
Nowadays what it means to “reunify” with China has changed quite a bit. If you still think unification necessarily means that China obtaining direct, physical control of Taiwan, I’m afraid your views are seriously outdated. I’ve said this before and I’ll say it again. China doesn’t want actual control of Taiwan nor is it opposed to Taiwan autonomy. China only wants a symbolic unification where Taiwan would be part of China in name only and retain its de-facto independence. Granted this is still unlikely to happen in the near future given the current political climate and China not having been democratized. But it sure is a hell lot more likely than you seem to think. Ever since Ma is elected there’s been all kinds of talk of him “selling out” Taiwan. It’s not out of the realm of possibility that Taiwan and China may form some kind of a loose political/economic alliance.
Tell me, why wouldn’t PRC citizens want to rip apart the ROC flag or bash the Taiwan as a legitimate entity? That’s how people usually respond to secessionist forces, and rightfully so. Do you expect them to support TI?
Because the flag at least is certainly not a symbol of seccesionist forces, but is recognized as a legitimate symbol of Taiwan the world over. Also, as Canadians have shown, civilized people respond to secession by creating the legal means for it to happen if it is truly the will of the people.
And yes, I would expect a people with a healthy respect for education to support dejure independence, because there is nothing for China to gain from unification but a warm fuzzy feeling. I would hope your people would be clever enough to recognize that. You have nothing substantial to gain, whereas we have much to lose.
Besides your head, can you show where else such a, shall we say, fanciful view of cross-straight relations, is expressed?
so if it’s only a SYMBOLIC unification, it means nothing, as you say? crap. china wants the world to see it has WON taiwan back, and whether that occurs by force, by economic integration, by setting it up as a beijing kindergarten, or by physically towing the island ‘back’ to the mainland, they don’t care. they want the reunification thing to be seen to be a reunification.
i agree that most of us here are not so worried anymore about a military invasion and annexation, even though the balance has shifted well and truly into China’s hands, but we are still concerned about the PRC taking taiwan on its terms, and in its current state. the PRC never admitted that they failed in their many attempts at taking over the island nation of Taiwan. they have still not woken up to the fact that this is an independent country and has been for 60 years.
you might dismiss it to us as a mere symbol, but you can’t pull the wool over our eyes so easily, bucko. HK is a province reclaimed under much the same guise (autonomous, supposed ‘democratic’ government, different set of freedoms) yet it is most definitely called an integral part of CXhina, isn’t it? as with macao. and when you inevitably get your mitts on Taiwan, you can be sure that the significance of such ‘symbolism’ will not be downplayed.
in the one breath you call it a mere symbol, and then you fight like a wounded walrus for it (all blubber and bustle but not much effect, but woe-betide any other walrus who has the ‘temerity’ to draw attention to the fact that you’re actually squabbling over a seal of a very different species). there, i just called taiwan a seal, blubber boy.
we all know how much China values its ‘symbolic statements’. Mr Ma especially is aware of that, kowtowing his Presidential seal into the dust.
China has played this up so much that anything other than control/ownership (call it whatever term you want) would be a serious loss of face
The standard line is “Taiwan is part of China”. Question “Why or what document says that Taiwan is part of China?” Ans: “Taiwan is part of China”
Let’s assume that is true, then the from the CCP perspective, people who view Taiwan not as part of China are
Loony
Confused
Separatists
Agents trying to undermine the middle kingdom
There will be a lot of reeducation camps if the occupation happens. Lessons learned and classes taught by the Khmer Rogue may be needed
[quote=“Muzha Man”]
Because the flag at least is certainly not a symbol of seccesionist forces, but is recognized as a legitimate symbol of Taiwan the world over. Also, as Canadians have shown, civilized people respond to secession by creating the legal means for it to happen if it is truly the will of the people.
And yes, I would expect a people with a healthy respect for education to support dejure independence, because there is nothing for China to gain from unification but a warm fuzzy feeling. I would hope your people would be clever enough to recognize that. You have nothing substantial to gain, whereas we have much to lose.[/quote]
The ROC flag is a symbol of Taiwan sovereignty, of course Chinese people is opposed to that. And what are you talking about that it’s recognized the world over? Almost no country recognizes that flag, save for a few poor African countries that Taiwan managed to lure with its money.
And no, I totally don’t expect people to support independence for a certain part of their country just because the people living in it want to. I’m afraid this is not how the world operate. You don’t get to secede from the country you’re in and form a new country just because you want to. Imagine if there are provinces, counties, cities, or towns the world over who want independence because of some petty grievance with the central government. Or unhappy farmers who want to declare their farm an independent country. Don’t think that’s going to work.
These views are not expressed, at least not overtly. It’s just not a politically correct thing to do. But if you carefully read into cross-strait developement and all the things that’s been changing since China’s economic liberalization. It’s pretty clear this ain’t the 50’s and 60’s. To insist that China still wants actual control and integrate Taiwan like the other mainland provinces would make as much sense as saying the ROC still wants to recover the mainland.
If this be the case, then I think it would be incumbent on the central government to figure out why and then try to remedy these concerns. Remedies usually do not include 1000 missiles
I thought of declaring my back garden a republic in the late 80’s. Create my own flag and national anthem. Then I would legalize everything. Problem was that the USSR fell apart, as did my plan
[quote=“ABC”][quote=“Muzha Man”]
Because the flag at least is certainly not a symbol of seccesionist forces, but is recognized as a legitimate symbol of Taiwan the world over. Also, as Canadians have shown, civilized people respond to secession by creating the legal means for it to happen if it is truly the will of the people.
And yes, I would expect a people with a healthy respect for education to support dejure independence, because there is nothing for China to gain from unification but a warm fuzzy feeling. I would hope your people would be clever enough to recognize that. You have nothing substantial to gain, whereas we have much to lose.[/quote]
The ROC flag is a symbol of Taiwan sovereignty, of course Chinese people is opposed to that. And what are you talking about that it’s recognized the world over? Almost no country recognizes that flag, save for a few poor African countries that Taiwan managed to lure with its money.
And no, I totally don’t expect people to support independence for a certain part of their country just because the people living in it want to. I’m afraid this is not how the world operate. You don’t get to secede from the country you’re in and form a new country just because you want to. Imagine if there are provinces, counties, cities, or towns the world over who want independence because of some petty grievance with the central government. Or unhappy farmers who want to declare their farm an independent country. Don’t think that’s going to work.
These views are not expressed, at least not overtly. It’s just not a politically correct thing to do. But if you carefully read into cross-strait developement and all the things that’s been changing since China’s economic liberalization. It’s pretty clear this ain’t the 50’s and 60’s. To insist that China still wants actual control and integrate Taiwan like the other mainland provinces would make as much sense as saying the ROC still wants to recover the mainland.[/quote]
Is it not 1996 also when the PRC fired intercontinental missile within a few miles of Kaohsiung ahead of the country’s first presidential elections? Suddenly doesn’t seem quiote so long ago, no? It’s this distinct lack of recent historical awareness that has me convinced you’re either in, or fresh out of high school, ABC.
[quote]China announced tonight that it would carry on large-scale military exercises off Taiwan through the presidential elections there, ignoring Taiwan’s calls to end belligerent acts and resume a dialogue.
“From March 18 to 25, 1996, the Chinese People’s Liberation Army will conduct joint ground, naval and air exercises in and over a sea area” covering much of the northwest part of the Taiwan Strait, the official New China News Agency announced. Taiwan’s presidential vote is March 23.
The Chinese Government also announced that it had concluded ballistic missile tests that sent a total of four M-9 rockets into target zones within a few dozen miles of Taiwan’s largest port, Kaohiung, and its northern Keelung harbor over the week.
In recent days, a number of senior Taiwanese officials have been calling on China to halt military exercises as a means of creating a more favorable climate for discussing Beijing’s charge that Taiwan’s President, Lee Teng-hui, is leading the island toward independence.
But China issued another rebuke in the Communist Party newspaper, People’s Daily.
“Although we have demonstrated time and again the sincere willingness of our party and governments toward the settlement of the Taiwan issue and our feelings of kinship toward the Taiwan compatriots, Lee Teng-hui still stubbornly sticks to his stance of ‘Taiwan independence’ and is trying to give ‘legal’ cover to the activities of ‘Taiwan independence’ by changing the way the Taiwan leadership is chosen,” the newspaper said in a joint editorial with the Liberation Army Daily. [/quote]
But a question I like to ask mainland lapdogs of the one China argument is: on what front is Taiwan not independant?
HG
You’re right about one thing. China does value symbolism, a lot. And there’s a reason for it. It’s because that’s the difference between de-facto and de-jure independence. In this world where there is no authority that determines sovereignty, whether or not you’re an independent country ultimately comes down to recognition(i.e. whether the international community recognizes you as an independent country). And of course China is going to do everything it can to prevent Taiwan from gaining that recognition. Why the hell not? If Ma is called “President” or Taiwan allowed to use its name or flags at internatinal events, or join international organizations where statehood is required, they would be symbols of Taiwan’s independence- something China obviously would strenuously oppose. And Ma, unlike his independence-minded predecessor, isn’t for TI and is more pragmatic so there’s no need for him to insist on the title or label or whatever protocol that means nothing but sybolism. This is the reason he’s achieved more in mere weeks than the DPP had in the eight years in term of cross strait relations.
What has he achieved in mere weeks?
Direct flights.
Chinese tourists
More missiles pointing at Taiwan
Such brinksmanship… what side is he on again?
[quote=“Huang Guang Chen”]
Is it not 1996 also when the PRC fired intercontinental missile within a few miles of Kaohsiung ahead of the country’s first presidential elections? Suddenly doesn’t seem quiote so long ago, no? It’s this distinct lack of recent historical awareness that has me convinced you’re either in, or fresh out of high school, ABC. [/quote]
Don’t worry, in the years since '96 China has wised up and learned that when the TI elements acts up in Taiwan, more could be done by appealing to the international community(who’s generally against TI) than lobbing missiles. That’s why today China uses diplomacy a lot more than military threat to counter the TI forces.
As for '96, you know there were a number of independence related activites that went down. I would expect the CCP to come up with some sort of response. So they decided to scare Taiwan a little. Why do you think the Chinese military used dummy warheads and fired them under the pretense of exercise if they’re serious about harming Taiwan?
Since you’ve excelled yourself in getting this far into the issue, perhaps you could take one further step and try and think how you would feel about your vastly bigger neighbour threatening you and your family like some cretinous playground bully with nukes? Do you think 1996 is really so far back with that in mind?
HG
Hi, I robbed a bank at gunpoint, every one was scared, an old lady died of a heart attack, and three tellers committed suicide in the following weeks from stress. but i don’t deeserve to be treated as an armed robber by the courts because it was a toy pistol, Your Honour.
“twelve years hard labour…”
[quote=“ABC”]…And of course China is going to do everything it can to prevent Taiwan from gaining that recognition. Why the hell not?
[/quote]
Actually, most sane people who ask simply “Why?” since Beijing stands to gain nothing. You don’t need the territory, our economies are already intertwined, we don’t have any natural resources, and we certainly don’t threaten you in any way. So, “why”? Can’t a Teddy Bear give you that warm fuzzy feeling you so crave?
[quote]
If Ma is called “President” or Taiwan allowed to use its name or flags at internatinal events, or join international organizations where statehood is required, they would be symbols of Taiwan’s independence- something China obviously would strenuously oppose. And Ma, unlike his independence-minded predecessor, isn’t for TI and is more pragmatic so there’s no need for him to insist on the title or label or whatever protocol that means nothing but sybolism. This is the reason he’s achieved more in mere weeks than the DPP had in the eight years in term of cross strait relations.[/quote]
You forget that the voters here didn’t vote for a “Mr” and the only reason Ma is in power is because the people put him there. He is the elected president of Taiwan and has an obligation to protect the sovereignty and dignity of this country, as well as his office.
But again, you are hilariously insisting that we don’t make a fuss over mere symbols while insisting we unify for purely symbolic reasons. The logic of the Han. 
Yes, imagine if you could muster up a 2/3rds majority necessary for secession over petty disatisfaction with the government. That truly would be amazing. But the truth is that secessionary impulses brew for a long time and usually involve a region that has long had a distinct culture, history or political system from the mainstream: think Quebec in Canada or the Basque region in Spain or Tibet in China. Think Taiwan with its 110 years of distinct history from China. Compare this to the flights of fancy peoples in British Columbia sometimes have stemming from disatisfaction with Ottawa. Inertia (and the recognition that it is a bad idea) prevents normal regions from ever considering seperation.
In any case, I repeat, Taiwan has been seperate from China for 110 years. Whatever it once was in relationship to Beijing, it is not anymore.