Would anyone care, on this fine saturday morning, to briefly explain to me their understanding of the differences between buddism and taoism? who burns the ghost money?
which one believe in a bunch of different gods… thost dudes with the long moustaches that carry swords?
which one makes the racket for a funeral?
and which temple holds those huge feasts at random times during the month?
which ones are the heavy drinkers? the guys at the temple at the end of my street drink cases of taiwan beer and kaoliang.
how can you tell a buddist temple from a tao temple?
I think the majority of the Temples you will see in Taiwan are Daoist. Swords and mustaches sounds to me like Guang Gong. Roughly put, he is the God of Justice, War or Brotherhood. Both Gangsters and Police worship him. All of your questions appear to me like they point towards Daoism.
[quote]Worship of Guan Yu (Guang Gong)
Guan Yu has been deified as early as the Sui Dynasty and is still popularly worshipped today among the Chinese people variedly as an indigenous Chinese deity, a bodhisattva in Buddhism and a guardian deity in Taoism. He is also held in high esteem in Confucianism. These are not necessarily contradictory or even distinguished among the common folks as is characteristic of the Chinese, who have quite seamlessly merged these ancient philosophies and religions into their own culture.
In the West, Guan Yu is sometimes called the Taoist God of War, probably because he is one of the most well-known military generals in Chinese history. This is misconceived as, unlike Mars or Tyr, Guan Yu as a god does not necessarily bless those who go to battle but rather anyone who observes the code of brotherhood and righteousness.[/quote]
His Temple of Worship is located at Minquan E. Rd. and Songjiang Rd. I’ve been there a few times. Worth a look.
Well, first up, one’s easier to spell. 
HG
And capitalize. 
Buddhism Daoism 
I found this Wikipedia article to be interesting reading, and relevant to what one sees in Taiwan:
For example, the temples with all the fancy dragons and other stuff on the roofs would tend to be Taoist, it seems.
I’d agree with the gist of the article, though, that there seems to be a general subtext of “Chinese folk religion” that sometimes dresses itself up as Taoist and sometimes as Buddhist. For example, some folks worship a mother goddess named Matsu, and others Guanyin (Taoist and Buddhist respectively), yet you’ll find no mention of either in the traditional scriptures.
Ah, what do I know? :shrug:
[edit: whoa, where did that “(Mazu)” in parentheses come from? I didn’t put it there 
]
Revering one of the world’s greatest jazz pianists doesn’t have much to do with Daoism. 
And the above response would be Zen.
And my above response is because I’m not sure what the hell sandman was talking about, which is akin to reading a zen koan, the short puzzling statements that are a part of the Japanese zen school of Buddhism, which one is supposed to contemplate on until one reaches a higher state of enlightenment. For example:
[quote]
Hogen, a Chinese Zen teacher, lived alone in a small temple in the country. One day four traveling monks appeared and asked if they might make a fire in his yard to warm themselves.
While they were building the fire, Hogen heard them arguing about subjectivity and objectivity. He joined them and said: “There is a big stone. Do you consider it to be inside or outside your mind?”
One of the monks replied: “From the Buddhist viewpoint everything is an objectification of mind, so I would say that the stone is inside my mind.”
“Your head must feel very heavy,” observed Hogen, “if you are carrying around a stone like that in your mind.” [/quote]
But not all Buddhism is zen. I believe, however, that all Buddhist temples have Buddhas in them, or should. For example, in Thailand (and the rest of SE Asia) the people are overwhelmingly Buddhist and in every temple you’ll see lots of Buddhas. On the other hand, I’ve seen very few Buddhas in Taiwan temples. I, too, have been baffled by Chinese/Taiwanese religion and Gods. There’s a well-known temple halfway up to Tamshui, on a hill overlooking the river that’s a good example. It’s a great temple, with a tunnel through the hillside and you walk through the long temple to get to the main part of the temple. Along the way you pass so many bizarre Chinese gods, many of them angry, with weapons, and looking like terrible devils more than gods one would worship. I have no idea what it all means, but it’s definitely not Buddhism.
Incidentally, many people will tell you that the main difference between Buddhism and Taoism is that Buddhism is a religion, whereas Taoism isn’t (they claim Taoism is a philosophy), but of course that depends on how one defines religion (worship of a god, belief in higher power, structured beliefs and practices, etc.) and I read a great book several years ago in which it was explained convincingly that the above argument is false and Taoism can just as properly be called a religion.
My wife’s family is Taoist, and they have a tan2 in their village which has a large buddha on the first floor and a small shrine and incense stick holder ( a big brass bowl filled with sand) on the second floor. On the wall upstairs is a males-only family tree, showing the lineage of the main god and all the men in the village, and only men are alowed to put the incense sticks in the holder after prayers. I only know about Taoism from what I’ve experienced here over the past few months, but I’m surprised that no one here has mentioned ancestor worship as a feature of (some kinds?) of Taoism.
The main god is someone who lived about 300 years ago, but there are two other gods that the family prays for also. My wife’s dad was a Chinese physician, and was elevated to god status after his death. There’s an annual birthday party for each god, and there was a ghost month feast and prayer money burning. When there was a death in the family recently, my wife’s aunt acted as a spirit medium: the gods talked to us through her. He also gave us the best day and date for our wedding a couple of years ago, again, through the aunt. I also carry a little red cloth item from the family tan2 that is filled with prayer money and has the names of the family gods written on it: It’s for good luck while riding the scooter. It’s crazy out there on the roads, I figure I need all the luck I can get.
Buddhism is a religion that contains a coherent philosophy which can be understood and benefitted from. Daoism, at least in the everyday sense of the word, appears to be a collection of superstitions all related to a fear of ghosts.
Buddhism and Taoism are very different. But most Chinese mix it all together.
Buddhism does not advocate worshiping any gods. You’re not even supposed to worship Buddha if you’re a devote Buddhist-- just respect and learn from him (and all the other buddhas). Taoism, on the other hand, believes in both gods and immortals, so a lot of what you see in temples about gods will come from Taoism or Chinese fold religion.
Taoism deals with seeking immortality. Buddhism focuses on escaping the cycle of rebirth. But in most Chinese practice people worship pretty much everything you can shake an incense stick at in the hope it will benefit them.
I could give you a detailed summary of what both would be ideally, but you’ll find that the reality of Chinese worship does not match the ideal.
Do you mean philosphical Daoism or popular Daoism? These are very different from each other. You need to clarify this before a contrast with Buddhism can be properly made.
That is a good sign. They must be very confident of the parentage.
Many systems seem to run down the female line because it is 100% guaranteed lineage.
Oh, I dunno. I guess after 4 years here and still being unable to distinguish the temples and noisy parades on my street I’m just trying to find out who’s who. I mean, is it the Buddhists or the Daoists that put out the fruit stand offerings? I have 3 temples on my street. I wonder if they are all the same. In the mountain in front of my house, should you hike up it, there are warrior-like statues in little caves each with their own little bronze pot for incense. There’s a huge, and I mean HUGE statue in the mountain to the right.
Sometimes one of the temples on my street will have what seems like a huge pot-luck that takes about 2 days to set up. Every now and then there is a parade like thing with people dressed in gigantic drangon like constumes that they hold up right with stilts with kids dancing around as though they are in some kind of trance. this is all, or course, followed by an arsenal of firecrackers… at 8-9 on a sunday morning.
and then there are the puppet shows…
i’m not so much interested in the fundamental teachings of each… just want to be able to tell them apart by what i see.
[quote=“Mother Theresa”]There’s a well-known temple halfway up to Danshui, on a hill overlooking the river that’s a good example. It’s a great temple, with a tunnel through the hillside and you walk through the long temple to get to the main part of the temple. Along the way you pass so many bizarre Chinese gods, many of them angry, with weapons, and looking like terrible devils more than gods one would worship. I have no idea what it all means, but it’s definitely not Buddhism.
[/quote]
That temple, which is quite nice and well worth a visit, is the Guandu Temple (as in not that far from the Guandu MRT Station). Also a good place to rent bikes and ride up and down the river in nice weather.
My source, while not scholarly, tells me with certainty that the Guandu Temple is Taoist.
[quote=“Tigerman”]Do you mean philosphical Daoism or popular Daoism? These are very different from each other. You need to clarify this before a contrast with Buddhism can be properly made.
[/quote]
Excellent point. As far as I can tell, there are significant differences between the original tenets of all religions and modern-day practice. And it seems that the farther we move from the point of origin, the greater the divergence, which stands to reason.
[quote=“bushibanned”]Oh, I dunno. I guess after 4 years here and still being unable to distinguish the temples and noisy parades on my street I’m just trying to find out who’s who. I mean, is it the Buddhists or the Daoists that put out the fruit stand offerings? I have 3 temples on my street. I wonder if they are all the same. In the mountain in front of my house, should you hike up it, there are warrior-like statues in little caves each with their own little bronze pot for incense. There’s a huge, and I mean HUGE statue in the mountain to the right.
Sometimes one of the temples on my street will have what seems like a huge pot-luck that takes about 2 days to set up. Every now and then there is a parade like thing with people dressed in gigantic drangon like constumes that they hold up right with stilts with kids dancing around as though they are in some kind of trance. this is all, or course, followed by an arsenal of firecrackers… at 8-9 on a sunday morning.
and then there are the puppet shows…
I’m not so much interested in the fundamental teachings of each… just want to be able to tell them apart by what I see.[/quote]
Agree fully. There’s identification and then there’s comprehension. I’m still struggling with the first one and would be happy to make some progress there.
First of all, I got a couple of facts wrong in my last post:
1)the Auntie was in fact the medium for Chen2 Huang Yie2, god of the underworld. Also, according to my sister in-law, things got pretty interesting later on in the evening when a lot of the guests spontaneously started acting as the mediums for ghosts, which are always about at funerals. Nobody was drinking either. As you can imagine, there can be a lot of mischief created when someone starts acting out the role of a god, and some of my family suspect that the auntie might have a hidden agenda, based on some things she said about my father in-law.
- It is in fact ok for women to put incense sticks in the holder, just not during certain times.
Bushibanned: So who is who? According to what I’m told, the only sure way to tell is by the funeral ceremonies. The Taoists will have a man called the Sai Gong (it’s Taiwanese, and I don’t know the tones, sorry). He’s the guy who dresses up and directs the funeral. At death, the body divides into three spirits. One goes to the grave site, and one goes to the home to reside in a set of wooden tablets. My mother in-law has the family tablets upstairs in a family shrine on the third floor. The third spirit gets sent to Chen2 Huang2 Yie2 to be punished for whatever wrongs were committed in life, and then sent on for reincarnation. I think the Sai Gong helps mediate the punishment, but I’m not really sure. Our next door neighbors are not Taoists, but we didn’t know that for sure until one of their older relatives died. They are Yi1 Guan4 Dao4 (White Lotus) and had a much simpler funeral, and no Sai Gong.
In the tan2 across the street from us, I can see two little wooden statues each about a foot high sitting on an ornate altar with a Yin/Yang painted on the wall behind. These little statues are the actual gods. Sometimes you may see gods being carried around in a sedan chair. My brother in-law helps carry the chair at the village temple, and as a result, he gets certain protections.
The gods are ranked in Taoism, and the head of the gods is Yu4 Huang2 Da4 Di4. Some gods are military gods, some are clerics, etc. The higher ranking gods are always depicted certain ways… some are always warriors and depicted with weapons or on horseback. Not all gods are benevolent either. All of the gods were once living people, male or female, warts and all, but I’m not sure how they are selected or how the ranking works. However, the higher ranking gods are always older. When chosen as a god, the person is given a new name and assigned a place (god of wind, god of water, etc.), so it’s hard to know who exactly they once were.
Mistake #3) My family thinks that the village god was a certain person from 300 years ago, but they are not exactly sure.
Ghosts are different from gods. One becomes a ghost if the proper rites are not observed at death, which means that your god cannot find and guide (your three spirits?) you on to reincarnation. Ghost month is sort of an amnesty period, when the dead can be found by their god(s). So the ghost feast is set out, and the prayer money is burned to bring home the lost.
The tan2 across the street is a public tan, and the laoban there is medium for Ji4 Gong1 as a paid service. Ji4 Gong1 was the meat-eating, wine-drinking monk who became a god, and he can be recognized by a gold robe and hat. The Laoban drives a taxi when he’s not working at the tan2, so maybe it’s due to lack of local fervor for Ji4Gong1, or maybe it’s to do with his presentation, or the truth of his predictions. The gods have power to grant wishes and heal sickness, and that is the connection between Toaism and Chinese medicine. My wife went recently to the village tan2 to get medicine from the god. The god was placed in the sedan chair and she was asked to grab two of the handles so the god could do a quick scan of her body. Sometimes the god is busy doing other things, so you can’t always just go to the tan2 and expect to be served every time. It just happened that the doctor was in that day.
I had the sh*ts for the first several weeks I was here in Taiwan, so my mother-inlaw went to the god to ask him to help me, and the god gave me some special water to drink. Either it worked, or I just needed to lay off Taiwan pi jiu for a while.
On the opposite corner there is a smaller tan2, and the owner there is a fortune teller, not a medium. I’ve noticed that there is quite a bit of comparison shopping that goes on between the two places.
There’s a third tan2 farther down the street, and this one seems to be the loudest and most popular. I’m not sure what their racket is, but there’s always a bunch of guys out front chewin’ the nut, drinking beer and talking loud until late in the evening most nights. They threw one hell of a street party last night: karaoke, disco lights, street dancers, fireworks and all.
It’s busy where I live. in addition to the three tan2 here on bi1hu2 lu, there is also a bigger place, a miao4 over on bin2 lang2 lu. From this place we often get some random drive-by Taoism, groups of dragon dancers, swordsmen and spiffied up blue trucks. Sometimes the marches are presaged by a few hours of tuneless two-string violin music, which sounds like bagpipes on acid, along with the “screaming Mimi” fireworks, or a few hours of gong drumming coming from the miao4.
So, If they march, they’re Taoists. It’s all Quite interesting.
In theory you should be able to tell from the name of the temple. If the last character is gong 宮 or ci祠 or miao廟, it is likely that it is Daoist. If it is si寺, it will most definitely be Buddhist.
Especially to those interested in the notion that an entire culture could in fact be psychotic.
The older I get the more interested I am in fredom FROM religion.
Oh, I dunno. I guess after 4 years here and still being unable to distinguish the temples and noisy parades on my street I’m just trying to find out who’s who. I mean, is it the Buddhists or the Daoists that put out the fruit stand offerings? I have 3 temples on my street. I wonder if they are all the same. In the mountain in front of my house, should you hike up it, there are warrior-like statues in little caves each with their own little bronze pot for incense. There’s a huge, and I mean HUGE statue in the mountain to the right.
Sometimes one of the temples on my street will have what seems like a huge pot-luck that takes about 2 days to set up. Every now and then there is a parade like thing with people dressed in gigantic drangon like constumes that they hold up right with stilts with kids dancing around as though they are in some kind of trance. this is all, or course, followed by an arsenal of firecrackers… at 8-9 on a sunday morning.
and then there are the puppet shows…
I’m not so much interested in the fundamental teachings of each… just want to be able to tell them apart by what I see.[/quote]
Well, pretty much gonna all be Taoist. And popular Taoism for the most part. With Buddhist it’s gonna be a statue of Buddha or Guanyin. But Chinese have done a merger number on the two popular religions, so you get Buddha hanging out with Lao Tze and immortal dragons.
Burning ghost money, any sort of fenshui based activity, firecrackers, etc. are pretty much all going to be based on popular Taoism. Monks with shaved head are generally going to be Buddhist. But whoever you talk to they’re probably going to practice some of both.