The Far Right

Those words come up a lot in discussions these days, as we all know.

I thought it might be nice to have a separate thread on events broadly about The Far Right™ - which, IMHO, tends to mean people who just want to be left alone and who get upset when they’re told to believe in self-evident nonsense. This thread is not for discussion of actual extremist groups which people of common sense can usually identify as such by their actions, but for things like this:

https://apnews.com/article/germany-far-right-magazine-compact-banned-c284d76eb1a83f7c651299606d31337a

Now, I’ve always laboured under the impression that shutting down or banning magazines was very much a ‘far right’ sort of thing to do, but what do I know?

The main problem here is that all record of their existence is being expunged (and there we go with the book-burning, which I always associated with actual extremist regimes):

… so we can’t really judge what this was all about. As far as I can gather they were attempting to cultivate a broad appeal among the non-liberal audience of Germany (which I would have thought is just good business sense, not a crime), and aligned themselves politically with the AfD (who strike me as run-of-the-mill Conservatives). Rather like Trump, everything they say is evil, and any point of agreement with the radical left is just proof of their ill-intent:

According to Mathias Brodkorb [de], an anti-right-wing extremism activist and Social Democratic Party of Germany politician, Compact has an anti-American and anti-imperialistic veneer.[27] These traditionally left-wing positions are employed by Compact to reach pro-Russian and nationalistic conclusions.

Is anyone here familiar with this magazine? Are there any of their articles out there we could read?

It was a print magazine. If you are keen to read it, you need to travel to Germany and buy a physical copy in a shop before they disappear.

What they were writing about is mentioned in several news reports and other places.

WP has sources linked.

Some speech is illegal in Germany. Doing illegal stuff gets one banned.

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OK, but I don’t intend to go to Germany, and I doubt anybody dares to sell it right now. Have you ever read it? What did they say that was illegal? It isn’t entirely clear from the articles.

AFAIK there are some incredibly specific things that are ‘banned speech’ in Germany. Simply being ‘Far Right’ is not enough to get you shut down, no? At least not in a lawful manner.

And were they actually Far Right in the traditionally-accepted sense, or just “Far Right™”?

It was a small magazine I haven’t even heard of.

The official press release has more info about their transgression of the law.

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Good move to watch

Tried to find some snippets or screenshots of articles, to no avail.

There is, as expected, a lot of discussion going on about this in Germany right now.

If you think there should be laws against spreading hatred or publishing content that goes against the constitution, you have to draw the line somewhere. The government has been criticized for erring on both sides when it comes to dealing with extreme groups, left and right. There is no perfect way, as usual.

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I think there should be a law against incitement to murder but free speech apart from that and a few other things should be protected.

This is the paradox of tolerance:

The Paradox of Tolerance disappears if you look at tolerance, not as a moral standard, but as a social contract.
If someone does not abide by the terms of the contract, then they are not covered by it.
In other words: The intolerant are not following the rules of the social contract of mutual tolerance.
Since they have broken the terms of the contract, they are no longer covered by the contract, and their intolerance should NOT be tolerated.
(inspired by “Tolerance is not a moral precept” by Yonatan Zunger)

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I think this thread could be a good place to define some terminology.

There are a lot of terms thrown around that sometimes overlap, sometimes mean different things.

far right
right wing
extreme right
Nazi
fascist
conservative
libertarian
etc.

In Germany, we don’t have the term ‘far right’, but we make a distinction between radical right (rechtsradikal) and extreme right (rechtsextrem). If the Ministery of the Interior deems a group extreme right, they are likely to get banned.

Btw, I would not describe the AfD as run-of-the-mill conservatives. They are firmly in radical right territory as far as I know. Some say they are extreme right and should be banned.

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What’s the difference, would you say?

The first one does not necessarily violate the principles of the free democratic basic order.

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The degree of radicalization, with the extreme right being neck-deep in what we call the “brown swamp”… (Brauner Sumpf).

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Ok I think I’m getting it :slight_smile:

I can see how you’d be more sensitive about this :slight_smile:

I’ve always thought it quite odd the Germans are so strict about this when:

–During the Cold War, West Germany was far less strict on de-Nazification in reality than the German Democratic Republic.
–While Hindenburg brought Hitler into government, it was the switch from SPD to Nazi Party votes that allowed Hitler his best Reichstag result (which still wasn’t first place). In reality, SPD votes empowered Hitler.
–Both the left and the right often cooperated with Hitler (with notable exceptions of figures that left the country such as Brandt, went to concentration camps such as Kurt Schumacher, or who went off the grid for times such as Adenauer).

Overall, as time moves on, I hope the German states embraces a little more free speech.

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So, how far can far-right (far-left) groups go in the UK when it comes to spreading their messages? What would be resulting in a ban? There have to be groups fiercely opposing the islamification of the UK, I suppose?

Then one wonders why it was so incredibly important to ban it.

Perhaps it wasn’t important at all. Perhaps it was just (a) exposed to lawfare, simply by virtue of the fact that it was being printed in Germany by German citizens and (b) too small to defend itself. It therefore represented a low-cost, low-risk example of what happens to you if you get funny ideas.

Well, thanks for the link, but it doesn’t have any more information than the newspaper articles. It’s just opinion and handwaving. At no point in that rambling, incoherent statement were they even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. It certainly doesn’t describe exactly what they did to bring summary judgement upon themselves. And since all the evidence has been shoved in the memory hole, we have no way of making our own assessment.

And do you not find that a little bit suspicious?

Several people have been accused over the last few years of being ‘far right’, ‘holocaust deniers’, or similar crimes that only exist in Germany. They have at least been given the chance to stand in court and defend themselves. None of them have just been overrun by the State apparatus, with no right to habeas corpus, and thus no trial and no right of appeal. One woman, in this case, has appointed herself judge, jury, and executioner. Is that the way civilized societies are supposed to work?

Personally I don’t, but apparently Germans do. So the thing is this. If you’re going to ‘draw the line’, it would be prudent not to draw it in a place where you’re hoist by your own petard. In 2020-2021, the government of Germany was busy publishing content that was outright false, in order to terrify everyone enough to accept unconstitutional impositions, and then transitioned into spreading hate against a certain subsection of the population. The untermensch were marked out for social exclusion, and the ubermensch were issued with cards to show that they had, as it were, been de-loused.

Even if the entire premise of this hatred had been true - that the untermensch were a threat to the others - the wording of the COMPACT judgement suggests that you can’t do this. If you’re not allowed to point out, for example, that people from violent, lawless countries are actually prone to committing violent crimes so horrific that native Germans don’t do such things, then surely you’re not allowed to socially exclude the lousy, either?

As for not being allowed to criticize the Constitution, that’s not a useful basis for a functioning democracy - and in fact seems to miss the whole point of democracy. You must be able to critique it, at least; to be able to point out things that aren’t working.

As for what happens in the UK - it’s apples and oranges. The UK has a very different government and regulatory regime. Parliament is all-powerful - you may have heard the idea that UK governance is constrained by nothing more than the notion of “good chaps” being in charge, and “good chaps” would never abuse their powers.

In theory the UK has a strong tradition of free speech. You could deny the holocaust or say that far too many immigrants are criminals. You’d have a robust debate on your hands, and perhaps the air would be cleared. That was then; this is now. You’re very likely to have the police harrassing you if you say those things today.

Yes indeed. But I’m really wondering: does it really matter, practically speaking, if a government or organisation is “extreme left” or “extreme right”? Both are authoritarian. Both aim to have State power supported by the entire might of the economy and concentrated in a small number of hands. There are some very slight differences, but the ultimate outcome is the same.

Were COMPACT advocating for a single-party government? Is it even illegal to advocate for the overthrow of the government? The thing is, “overthrowing the government” happens at every single election - by means of rhetoric rather than violence. Perhaps it’s time to put a stop to electioneering that results in a change of government? Maybe elections should just be done away with altogether?

They have the right to go to court like everyone else, and they certainly will.

I think Germany is far from being the worst place to be when it comes to freedom of expression, freedom of press, etc.

The magazine has been around for 14 years and well, they have extreme views that probably go against the democratic system the majority of Germans wish to preserve.

Germany is alright, but like other countries, the current system there faces existential challenges from different directions, one of them being the extreme right.

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Here is some info ( from 2022) about the magazine (in English)

I am still not sure what content exactly has resulted in the ban. This magazine has been around for quite a while.

There’s a rumour going around that it was triggered by an interview with Maria Zakharova (Russian Foreign Ministry). Who knows? If the German authorities weren’t being so damn cagey about it, people wouldn’t speculate. It’s almost as if they want to create a firestorm of speculation about it.

Possibly. So what? Unless they’ve explicitly (say) called for a pogrom against Jews, who cares what they think? Is German democracy so fragile that it cannot survive criticism from a magazine with (apparently) only a very small readership? Have they said something so outrageous that it’s an imminent threat to life and limb, requiring the authorities to put them out of business without first giving them an opportunity to answer the charges against them? At the moment, it doesn’t appear so.

It is a cornerstone of Justice in all civilized nations that a person is innocent until proven guilty, and only when proof has been produced, and agreed upon in public, may sanctions be meted out. The details of ‘proof’ may vary from place to place, but simply sending in the men in black to take all your stuff is the preserve of banana republics. I think Germany needs to face up to the fact that they already have an authoritarian government, and the threat is not from dissidents.