The fastest way to teach a child English in Taiwan is to not learn it at an English School

Work Teaching English in Taiwan
1

This might sound like a troll topic but bear with me for a moment.

Yesterday, I saw a 16-year-old Taiwanese teenager going through a basic English language practice workbook. Skimping through the pages, I realized that the level of exercises in that book (comprehension and writing) are meant for 8-year-olds in countries where English is taught as a first language.

Now, I may be wrong here but it seems to me that the rules of English grammar aren’t that difficult to grasp. You need at the most a few months of constant studying to integrate basic English grammar rules into your brain.

But the main reason why children, students and even adults in taiwan fail to improve their use of the English language isn’t because their foundation isn’t strong enough. It is because the Taiwanese do not get that many opportunities DAILY to practice their English language skills in verbal and non-verbal capacities. Practice makes perfect and there is no better example of this principle than the improvement of one’s linguistic skills.

So say you have a child in Taiwan and you want him to learn English, to use the language as well as you . Do you think that sending a child to English language schools, even on a daily frequency, is enough for him to use the English language at a level comparable to the Americans and British? I think not. You need to have a passion for the English language but really, what do you mean by passion?

There was this Japanese talk show many years ago where the hosts discuss the lack of proficiency in the English language in Japan despite Japanese parents spending thousands of dollars on their children in order for them to learn English. The talk host was saying, if a japanese child does not process his thoughts in the English language, then it would be very difficult for him to increase his English language proficiency.

I agree with him. I believe that if you are not living in a English-speaking country, then you would have to live, eat, and breathe English in order to evolve your English language proficiency skills. You have to process your thoughts in the English language which is what most of us in this forum are doing right now.

But how do you get a Taiwanese child in Taiwan to process his thoughts in English where his is bombarded with every manner of information medium in Chinese? How do you get a Taiwanese child to process his sensory information in English despite the fact that most of his sensory information is in the Chinese language? Hell, even the Science, Maths, History and other classes are being taught in Chinese so the average Taiwanese child is taught to analyze and problem-solve in the Chinese language.

This is the key problem in learning a foreign language, I think. This is something which I think no language school in the world, English, Japanese or otherwise, would be able to accomplish.

It is like martial arts. A teacher can only teach you the basics but you would have to truly evolve your martial arts skills on your own.

2

The fastest way to teach a child English in Taiwan is to not learn it at an English School? How many people know that they want to teach a child English before they decide to learn it at an English school? That is crazy talk.

3

:s Your sentence doesn’t make sense to me… but its late and I’m tired so its probably my brain not comprehending.

Last I checked, I was learning Chinese from a textbook that seems to be teaching me like an 8 year old. And I am p.e.r.f.e.c.t.l.y. alright with that. Why? Cause Chinese is damned hard for my mature mind ( :roflmao: ) to grasp.

Perhaps if I was starting Spanish at this age I’d be pissed off if the textbook was teaching me at a child level.
But this is not Spanish where the grammar and sentence structure are nearly identical to English.
So therefore, I must resort to child-level lessons. OK. :thumbsup:

It sounds to me like you’ve pointed out the basic :doh: issue that everyone is aware of: language is best developed in its own environment. Unfortunately, it seems you haven’t grasped the second issue they’ve all identified: Taiwan is not an English-speaking country.
You’re advocating for immersion. You can’t get that if your environment doesn’t provide it.
But it does provide a language school. :discodance:

4

English language schools can only provide the fundamentals but they can never give you the proficiency possessed by native English speakers.

For the record, I spoke to that kid today. Turns out, he wasn’t really interested in English at all… it was his mum who was forcing him to learn English… he reads Chinese newspapers rather than English ones (which proves my point that he processed information in the Chinese language)… and he is much more interested in learning Geography and the Chinese language rather than the English language…

5

Crystaleye … this is a common gripe among teachers (and foreigners in general) in Taiwan. You just have to remember that the education system here is primarily about “face”. It has nothing whatsoever to do with preparing young people for the big bad world and/or a career.

It’s not a whole lot better in “the west”, of course, where the whole point of education is for the state to babysit the kids for ten hours while both parents go out to work to pay heavy taxes so that … uh, the state can babysit their kids.

In this case, as you’ve noticed, this poor kid is studying english so that the mother can brag about what a clever kid her son is and how much money they have to pay for his english lessons. It’s dreadfully sad how parents tell their kids they shouldn’t be interested in this but should instead study that because …well, just because. It explains the extremely low quality of work you encounter in - for example - design and the arts (or, rather, the relatively rare occurrence of outstanding talent given Taiwan’s large population). I was talking to someone just this afternoon who told me a story about when she was a teenager. Growing up in Tainan, the local bigwig came to offer his congratulations because she got into Cheng Gong university. Apparently, she just burst into tears because she was embarrassed she hadn’t made it to Tai Da. This had nothing to do with the expected quality of the school, but was simply about the prestige of geting “Tai Da” on your degree certificate.

And yes, it would be quite possible for anyone to acquire any language (to a basic level) with a few months of proper, focused learning; or to a good level of fluency in about two years. The most ridiculous thing is that the (better) language centres for teaching Chinese to foreigners achieve this on a regular basis. It’s just never occurred to anyone to apply the same methods to Taiwanese students.

Anyway, this one has probably been done to death … but it’s still nice to have a chance to whinge about it now and again :wink:

6

You are wrong.

Think about a really simple grammar rule that you find easy such as the use of articles. Sit down and write down all the rules for the use of articles and then reconsider your statement.

Having said that, the point you are missing is that it isn’t about understanding the rules of grammar. It is about using them without thinking or understanding as most native speakers do. Living in an English speaking environment is arguably the only way to achieve this for most people. The TPRS guys reckon they have come close to achieving the same results in the classroom - which is very exciting stuff. The way grammar is taught in Taiwan is the reason your students are failing to get where you would like them to be. The objective of trying to get students to understand the rules of grammar is the core problem. A large number of Taiwanese already understand the rules of English grammar at a much higher level than most native English speakers. They just can’t use it.

7

[quote=“tomthorne”][quote=“crystaleye”]
Now, I may be wrong here but it seems to me that the rules of English grammar aren’t that difficult to grasp. You need at the most a few months of constant studying to integrate basic English grammar rules into your brain.
[/quote]

You are wrong.

Think about a really simple grammar rule that you find easy such as the use of articles. Sit down and write down all the rules for the use of articles and then reconsider your statement.

Having said that, the point you are missing is that it isn’t about understanding the rules of grammar. It is about using them without thinking or understanding as most native speakers do. Living in an English speaking environment is arguably the only way to achieve this for most people. The TPRS guys reckon they have come close to achieving the same results in the classroom - which is very exciting stuff. The way grammar is taught in Taiwan is the reason your students are failing to get where you would like them to be. The objective of trying to get students to understand the rules of grammar is the core problem. A large number of Taiwanese already understand the rules of English grammar at a much higher level than most native English speakers. They just can’t use it.[/quote]

So why can’t they use it despite knowing more about grammar than native English speakers?? And how is grammar being taught here in Taiwan which actually impedes rather than improves a student’s progress in the English language?

Sorry I have no experience nor interest in teaching… Just curious about the psychology of how humans think and learn…

To tell you the truth, I have actually forgotten about all those basic rules of grammar which I learnt in kindergarten yet when it comes to writing and speaking, I will know when I make a mistake and correct it automatically. It is like these basic rules are ingrained in my subconscious and I can use them without even thinking about them.

I mean, when you make a mistake in your English sentence structures, you would know it. It just feels wrong somehow.

8

[quote=“crystaleye”][So why can’t they use it despite knowing more about grammar than native English speakers?? And how is grammar being taught here in Taiwan which actually impedes rather than improves a student’s progress in the English language?

Sorry I have no experience nor interest in teaching… Just curious about the psychology of how humans think and learn…

To tell you the truth, I have actually forgotten about all those basic rules of grammar which I learnt in kindergarten yet when it comes to writing and speaking, I will know when I make a mistake and correct it automatically. It is like these basic rules are ingrained in my subconscious and I can use them without even thinking about them.

I mean, when you make a mistake in your English sentence structures, you would know it. It just feels wrong somehow.[/quote]

First of all, you did not learn basic grammar rules in kindergarten. I know that because grammar isn’t taught in kindergarten. You learned grammar naturally when you learned language from your primary care givers as a baby.

For the first year or so of your life, you watched and listened to your mommy talk to you, koo at you, soothe you. You can ask you mom this, and she’ll tell you I’m right. within a couple weeks of birth, you had a distinctive cry for when you were hungry, when you were wet/drity, when you were afraid or startled. You were already, at that time, modulating meaning into your vocalizations, and your mom could already understand you!

You brain began to grow and the processes of myelination began, and each time your mommy said “MOMMA!” to you, your brain began to file that word away in a spot where the memory of your momma was stored, and the connection got stronger. "Say, “MOMMA! MOMMA!” Now, she’s giving you a command. “Say.” Hmm, that’s something different. Lets make a file for it. One day, you looked into your momma’s loving eyes and said, “MOMMA!” and she errupted in J O Y!! "HEY, HEY, listen everybody, CrystalEye just said, “MOMMA!” Say, “MOMMA! Say, “MOMMA!”” So you said momma gain, and you put that connection to gether, too. Hmm “Say” is a command to speak. It is a word that shows an action and it comes before that name word.

Of course, your brain didn’t formalize thoughts like that yet. It didn’t have the vocabulary, or the cheek, to do that yet. But it did the process. That’s why bad grammar or syntax just sounds wrong to you. It’s intrnsic. It’s a part of the you you have become. Reading about it in a book is not the same process, doesn’t result in the same processes in the brain, and will not, ever, result in a fluently applied rule.

9

Like someone earlier said, it’s all about being able to tell people you’re good, not about BEING good.

The most important thing are the worthless English tests here, not any actual English speaking ability.

I know a guy that loves to tell people about his TOEIC score, yet you can’t understand a word of the mumbly nonsense that comes out of his mouth, and when you can understand it, the sentences are mangled to hell and back. So despite having to say “what?” about three to four times each time he wants to speak to you, he is “good at English”.

Basically, nobody gives a rat’s ass about learning English, they care about passing tests. The ones that do care about learning are doing it in an environment that only cares about tests and bragging rights, so they don’t get real far.

Then the rest are too afraid to make mistakes in front of other students and rarely practice. I’ve only met a couple people that didn’t constantly mangle sentences in Taiwan, and potentially all of them grew up in other countries.

10

In the US I had this great book written only about how to use articles. Some 100 pages on just articles (and some pronouns). It was crazy.

11

People don’t learn their first language in a formal fashion, they acquire it. Knowledge of grammar rules makes little, if any, difference to successful production of language. Some might argue that it is a hindrance. I think it definitely helps with writing, but even that’s open to debate. The problem in Taiwan is not how grammar is being taught, but that it is being taught in the first place.

If you are curious about how humans acquire first and second languages google Chomsky and Krashen as a start. They know a tad more than me.

12

The things being said on this thread are all arguments for an English Only environment in the classroom.

13

Agree to an extent…but cram schools are the only option besides studying abroad. They could however, be run in a manner that is more effective.

It is so annoying to hear Chinese teachers who can’t speak a lick of English complain about a lack of focus on sentence patterns or grammar points by the foreign teacher…no foreign teacher should be teaching grammar in the first place.

Because every Chinese teacher can do that easily…but they can’t teach the kids how to speak. There is only one way to get better at speaking and that is by speaking. Pure conversation classes taught by foreigners at every level to supplement the Chinese teachers use of VOC and Grammar point material would be much more effective than wasting time on book work or grammar when Chinese teachers can do that and in most cases do it better than we can…they are great at formulas and such. In my mind any time we hold up a VOC flash card, teach spelling or anything grammar related it is a complete waste of time. The only real asset we can offer them is conversing with them. I am not saying it would be easy at first because so many are so shy and limited in their speaking abilities, but it would be a lot better than rehashing the robotic material that is also taught by the Chinese staff. Several of these classes every day for years from a young age would go a long way IMO in cementing their confidence and ability to speak.

Most kids refuse to speak English or are too shy because they never get real practice from a young age. They can repeat and memorize all of the VOC and grammar rules in the world…it isn’t going to help them when faced with a real life conversation with a native speaker if they aren’t used to conversing. The only good thing about these cram schools is they do at least try and enforce no Chinese allowed by the students. But that is not enough because the students end up speaking a bizzaro world version of English reinforced by mechanical thinking Chinese teachers who have next to none or no English speaking ability. It is all about preparing for more tests to impress parents with something tangible that they can look at. Then the parents wonder why their kids can’t speak better despite years of intensive schooling.

I had an adult class in Korea before I first came to Taiwan who used to constantly complain to me that they felt duped by the system and that they wasted so much time and energy on all of the private school classes and tests there and still couldn’t speak well at all. I told them to make as many foreigner friends as possible who don’t speak any Korean and hang out with them as much as possible…they were a bit intimidated by the idea but all agreed that was the next best thing to do besides spending time abroad.

I hung out with one of them quite a bit…drinking buddies…and constantly corrected his speaking at his request and after a year his speaking ability was way better than before. He also had other foreigner friends who he hung out with through meeting me. He said he improved at a faster rate than ever before and was very greatful.

14

Not entirely. The aim should be for an environment with 100% comprehension. At times, that will require use of another language, both to clarify information to students and to determine if they have actually comprehended what you’ve said. In theory, immersion is great. However, it’s terribly inefficient in a classroom setting simply because it’s a fairly blunt instrument and there’s not enough time to use it the same way that immersion is used for a toddler.

Think about the elaborate lengths you would have to go to in order to express the following in an immersion environment here in Taiwan where you have two forty-five minutes lessons per week with your students: “The man was anxious about his job interview”. Or you could just have “anxious about” and “job interview” written on the board with Chinese next to them, or say those words in Chinese. Later, you could ask, “How do you say, ‘The man was anxious about his job interview.’ in Chinese?” Super quick (and lower stress for the student) way to check if the student comprehends or not.

It’s all very well to have an immersion environment for people who have a strong enough command of English that they can express themselves such that the teacher can identify why they don’t understand and how to go about making them understand using English to do so, but how many Taiwanese learners are at this level? If immersion were the solution, every foreigner who rode the MRT would be fluent in short order. It’s not enough to just be here/there.

15

I’m sorry I don’t have any original sources for this, but language acquisition research I’ve read over the years says that babies start to recognize the sounds of their native language in the womb. (They use special pacifiers to monitor babies sucking rate- the rate speeds up when they see/hear something they like/recognize, and based on this they seem to recognize/like the sounds of their native language.) Also, a Chinese baby’s babbling is going to sound different from an American baby’s babbling within the first few months of life. As many have mentioned here, kids are picking up language cues long before we’re consciously teaching them.

We all know children learn languages more readily/less painfully than adults. Ideas about the LAD (was that what they called it? A language acquisition device?) that deactivates after a certain age have been tossed around, while proponents of immersion say that you can learn a language at any age if immersed in it for long enough. I don’t think anyone knows for sure but when I have midgets of my own I intend to have a chinese speaking nanny who will talk to them for an hour or so a day from birth.

I believe immersion would work in a pure environment, if the students had a steady teacher, or at least a steady teaching philosophy, from their first exposure to English. But we have no control over the exposure people have gotten to English before we get the chance to teach them. Many have a purely intellectual understanding of the grammar, and have fossilized errors that they may never lose. You’ll also have people of different levels in your classroom, so TPRSing will frustrate the hell out of the higher level students. If these students STARTED with a teacher who actually knew something about language acquisition they’d have a fighting chance, but as it is, we’re all slogging around in the muck of a very mucky industry, where the bosses know nothing about language acquisition and the teachers change or leave after a year or two. And why shoudl we stay or develop our skills? Generally the teacher with passion and interest in teaching gets paid nearly the same as the teacher who rolled in off the plane and teaches to fund their drinking habit. The Laobans complain about bad teachers, but in a lot of ways they do it to themselves.

One thing though, Kindy teachers, please, please please please do NOT Taiwandify grammar when speaking to your little ones. For example “Yesterday I go to hot spring, is so fun!” USE THE PAST TENSE WHEN YOU’RE SPEAKING TO YOUR KIDS!!! When you ‘simplify’ the grammar you’re doing those kids a huge disservice, and they will fossilize these errors and will be convinced that it’s not a big deal when I try to correct them in my adult classes. You get paid more than your Taiwanese co-teachers because you can speak like a native. So speak like a native.

16

[quote=“crystaleye”]English language schools can only provide the fundamentals but they can never give you the proficiency possessed by native English speakers.

For the record, I spoke to that kid today. Turns out, he wasn’t really interested in English at all… it was his mum who was forcing him to learn English… he reads Chinese newspapers rather than English ones (which proves my point that he processed information in the Chinese language)… and he is much more interested in learning Geography and the Chinese language rather than the English language…[/quote]

That’s not true, my daughter’s English was better than her classmates for reading, writing, and in many ways speaking when we returned to Australia, according to her school teacher. In her class at my school she wasn’t the best student I had, she was average.

17

I totally agree with this. I worked at a school for a while where the owner (an ABC) purposely spoke to the students in something I wouldn’t even call Chinglish as that would be an insult to the term. I called her on this and she said that it was easier to get the children to understand what she was saying that way. Maybe so, but boy was it hard to correct those mistakes once they had been ingrained into their heads. They even though that I was the one making mistakes :fume:. I only lasted at that hole for two months.

18

[quote=“Lili”]
Perhaps if I was starting Spanish at this age I’d be pissed off if the textbook was teaching me at a child level.
But this is not Spanish where the grammar and sentence structure are nearly identical to English.
So therefore, I must resort to child-level lessons. OK. :thumbsup: [/quote]

No, you must resort to child-level lessons because that’s all that is available in Taiwan. There are definitely other ways to teach language.

[quote]
You’re advocating for immersion. You can’t get that if your environment doesn’t provide it.[/quote]

But we can reproduce the conditions of immersion in a classroom setting, and narrow the focus to the structure of the language, providing 100% comprehensible input. This experience may be better than straight immersion for older people (over, say, age 10) in many respects, though it won’t have the same power as dropping a three-year-old into the language environment.

19

No, they’re not.
The whole “immersion” and “English Only environment” movement depends on dumping students into situations where they cannot reliably comprehend what is going on. Acquisition only takes place when the brain can match up ‘foreign language=meaning’. A situation where this match cannot be made, or where it is made wrongly, does not support acquisition.

Also, and more practically for the Taiwan situation, you need fluent speakers to do immersion. I don’t see where that number of fluent speakers would come from. We have the same problem in the US with foreign language teachers who aren’t really proficient in the languages they teach. They love Spanish (French, German, whatever), and they’ve done a degree in it, but they aren’t really fluent, and they teach from books and teach grammar rules because that’s what they know how to do. It takes a lot of work with such a teacher to get them to teach using Comprehensible Input because it’s terrifying to them to have to speak the language.

20

TPRS is a very specific tool. It is intended to get the structure (aka “grammar” in technical terms) of a language into a learner’s head as rapidly as possible. It’s not intended to get huge amounts of vocabulary into the student’s head – just enough to “wrap” the structure so that it can be acquired.

When students are truly advanced – that is, they have truly internalized all the structure of the language – TPRS is not the tool of choice. Those students need extensive reading and extensive listening, and can tolerate far more unknowns than beginners who have not yet acquired the structure of the language. I wouldn’t recommend TPRS for more than two years of 1-hour-a-day Chinese study, for example (assuming the student starts from zero … false beginners are another problem altogether.)

If the “advanced” students are not really “advanced” – that is, they do not have perfect command of the structure of the language – that comes under the art of teaching. You have to differentiate your instruction, know how to ask easy and difficult questions within the course of a lesson and how to mix those together unpredictibly, how to go off on little side trips for the more advanced students to give them more language (words) to “disguise” the fact that they still need more repetitions of the basic structure, which they get in hearing it over and over in the course of class.