They’re absolutely no threat to anybody, and it’s unreasonable to suggest that they are…
I am absolutely no fan of the the Iranian theocracy but even a less of a fan of colonizing regimes especially ones who believe they are above the law. Many believe the Zionist movement is simply a nationalist political organization whose theme is the creation of a Jewish state and the protection of the Jewish people. Although this may have been the original intention , it was hijacked by right wing fundamentalists hell bent on a Jewish only state(Arabs excluded) There are many public quotes and declassified documents and personal diaries from the likes of David Ben-Gurion and leading rabbis to support this-too many to list. There is a growing number of American Jews also distancing themselves from this organization for the same reasons Americans are distancing themselves from their leaders. The sooner this criminal organization is removed and a government that is actually willing to make peace with it’s neighbors is elected , the better for not only Jewish people ,but for the region and beyond. Until then ,the state of Israel will be nothing more than a safe house for war criminals who will do whatever it takes to silence it’s critics.
You are a raging nutter. You are. You don’t think you are, but you are. Look at your insane rant below:
You’re a nutter, plain and simple.
Are you implying that no one, other than Israel of course, considers Iran to be a threat?
Isn’t the whole point of the current negotiations to delay Iran’s capacity to develop nuclear weapons?
Are you advocating further military adventurism in the Persian Gulf? Or just farting in Obama’s elevator, again?
[quote=“BigJohn”]@agentsmith:
You are a raging nutter. You are. You don’t think you are, but you are. Look at your insane rant below:
You’re a nutter, plain and simple.
Are you implying that no one, other than Israel of course, considers Iran to be a threat?
Isn’t the whole point of the current negotiations to delay Iran’s capacity to develop nuclear weapons?
Are you advocating further military adventurism in the Persian Gulf? Or just farting in Obama’s elevator, again?[/quote]
You obviously don’t understand Zionist culture. 
[quote=“agentsmith”]
You obviously don’t understand Zionist culture. 
[/quote]
You obviously don’t understand Israeli politics.
I’m no Netanyahu fan, but one thing he said in DC recently makes sense: American government leaders are concerned with national security. Israel’s are concerned with whether their state will even survive. It is not and has never been simply about ideology.
[quote=“BigJohn”][quote=“agentsmith”]
You obviously don’t understand Zionist culture. [/quote]
You obviously don’t understand Israeli politics.
I’m no Netanyahu fan, but one thing he said in DC recently makes sense: American government leaders are concerned with national security. Israel’s are concerned with whether their state will even survive. It is not and has never been simply about ideology.[/quote]
Playing the victim card is a political tactic that is getting very old. Somehow I don’t think the world’s 4th ranked military power backed by the most powerful military has much to worry about.
The only thing crazy about my “rant” is suggesting a racist,war mongering regime could be replaced by a more liberal government that is willing to negotiate peace and not dictate terms.
Debate: youtube.com/watch?v=UJeJD5GrXiA
You still don’t understand. They are not just “playing the victim”, although, sure yeah they’ll do that. They are genuinely concerned that their national will continue to exist. That’s where most Israeli attitude comes from.
Are you suggesting Iran has a death wish and wants to attack Israel? Majority of Israelis don’t think so nor does israeli intelligence. Gog/magog war (Ezekiel 38-39) ? psalm 83 war? Loss of Jewishness (assimilation)?
Could you elaborate a little?
Are you suggesting Iran has a death wish and wants to attack Israel? Majority of Israelis don’t think so nor does israeli intelligence. Gog/magog war (Ezekiel 38-39) ? psalm 83 war? Loss of Jewishness (assimilation)?
Could you elaborate a little?[/quote]
Perhaps you could check out the quotes provided by Rowland.
Also, note that Israel’s security policy is for it to be impossible to overwhelm it. If Iran had nukes, that would change the balance of power. Iran could ally with another country against Israel, and the threat of nukes could be a form of leverage. It would be a game changer.
There ya go. Like I mentioned somewhere else ,it’s about Israel retaining regional domination and of course economics plays a huge roll hence the illegal sanctions on Iran. But do you really think Iran needs a bomb to achieve that? Iran along with it’s proxies probably has more that enough conventional weapons to do the job never mind teaming up with Iraq. But as long as those moozlums are are scrapping it out with each other,Israel don’t have a heck of a lot to worry about especially when they are bought off so easily.
Actually, I think rowland deserves credit for not posting the usual right-wing nonsense about Iran wanting to exterminate the Jews.
Although the Ayatollah’s suggestion is equivalent to asking (North or South) American Indians, Australian aborigines, Maoris, or Taiwanese aborigines whether they want their lands back.
We stand by the iron-clad principle that only people we like get to decide which country they want to be in.Israelis yes, Palestinians no. Kosovars yes, Crimeans no. Georgians, yes, Ossetians no.
As it stands now, if border nations ganged up on Israel, Israel has a nuclear trump card. If Iran got the bomb, it could ally with Egypt, Syria, a Hezbollah controlled Lebanon. With Iranian support, Israel would not have the only trump card, the bomb. This would embolden Israel’s enemies.
As it stands now, if border nations ganged up on Israel, Israel has a nuclear trump card. If Iran got the bomb, it could ally with Egypt, Syria, a Hezbollah controlled Lebanon. With Iranian support, Israel would not have the only trump card, the bomb. This would embolden Israel’s enemies.[/quote]
Shiite Iran allying with
-Sunni Egypt- formerly (briefly) Muslim Brotherhood; currently US-aligned military dictatorship, whose ass has been kicked by Israel enough- and who enforces the border sanctions on Gaza.
-Syria which, even before their uprising, has been very careful not to get into any embroilments with Israel. And if Assad is overthrown, will be run by a viciously Sunni supremacist regime (why the Christians are backing the current government)
-A Hezbollah-controlled Lebanon: which does not exist.
Israel has approximately 200 nuclear warheads. You think all those people who had their butts kicked by Israel in conventional wars (and most of whom hate Iran) would be willing to risk that in exchange for the hope that, after they are reduced to radioactive ruins, Iran will kill all those Israelis?
As it stands now, if border nations ganged up on Israel, Israel has a nuclear trump card. If Iran got the bomb, it could ally with Egypt, Syria, a Hezbollah controlled Lebanon. With Iranian support, Israel would not have the only trump card, the bomb. This would embolden Israel’s enemies.[/quote]
Even if true why is this America’s problem? Who cares for a thuggish apartheid regime bent on the slow destruction of another people becauae they have the temerity not to move into the sea?
Your unconditional support for Israel is very 90s. Most people look at them now as little better than the other brutal states in the dog eat dog ME. Why pick sides?
As it stands now, if border nations ganged up on Israel, Israel has a nuclear trump card. If Iran got the bomb, it could ally with Egypt, Syria, a Hezbollah controlled Lebanon. With Iranian support, Israel would not have the only trump card, the bomb. This would embolden Israel’s enemies.[/quote]
So if Iran got a nuke(s) ,Israel’s enemies would be more inclined to attack and the US/NATO would just sit back and enjoy the show? And Israel would not use their nukes cause Iran would respond with their nukes not only destroying Israel but their Palestinian brothers and allies at the same time? Listen friend, ya gotta stop buying into these Fox News reports or religious folk or where ever your getting your info and start using your own God given brain pan.
As it stands now, if border nations ganged up on Israel, Israel has a nuclear trump card. If Iran got the bomb, it could ally with Egypt, Syria, a Hezbollah controlled Lebanon. With Iranian support, Israel would not have the only trump card, the bomb. This would embolden Israel’s enemies.[/quote]
So if Iran got a nuke(s) ,Israel’s enemies would be more inclined to attack and the US/NATO would just sit back and enjoy the show? And Israel would not use their nukes cause Iran would respond with their nukes not only destroying Israel but their Palestinian brothers and allies at the same time? Listen friend, ya gotta stop buying into these Fox News reports or religious folk or where ever your getting your info and start using your own God given brain pan.[/quote]
I don’t get my info from FOX news or religious idiots. You seem to believe that you are thinking for yourself because you are taking an anti-establishment position. That’s ain’t thinkin’ for yourself! That’s just identifying with the anti Israel crowd instead of the pro-Israel crowd.
I have been to Israel twice and read quite a bit about its history.
I think maybe it was a not a good idea to put a few million Jews on land that was then inhabited by Arabs. But the creation of Israel is a done deal.
Israel’s are paranoid, for sure, especially the RW which Netanyahu represents. I was trying to explain how they think, not say that I agreed with them.
How they think is that they must be able to defend themselves no matter what, including regime changes in nearby countries and a lack of full support from the USA. It’s kind of a survivalist prepper mentality. But then they have a lot of historical baggage, and have Hamas and others constantly threatening them, which keeps them on edge.
Possibly a compromise would work, such as a secular state, but personally I think that would take over a hundred years, as there are somany die hard Zionists in Israel.
There is so much disinformation in this thread it is ALMOST funny. The Zionists are not, nor were ever interested in dispelling all the Arabs from the land. Neither did they commit mass genocide.
If EITHER of these claims (which ignorants like to throw around) were even partially true…20% of the legal citizens of Israel would NOT be Arabs. But they are. 20% of Israeli citizens are Arabs.
There are mainly 3 categories of Palestinians (lets leave other Arabs in Israel, such as Druze and Bedouins out for now, since that is clearly too complicated for some of the people commenting in this thread).
- Israeli Citizens
- Arabs in East Jerusalem
3 Arabs in West Bank
The first, are citizens.
The second, were offered citizenship (or are descendants of those offered citizenship) after Israel took over the eastern section of Jerusalem. They refused. They did not want citizenship since the Arab powers that be persuaded them that Israel would soon be destroyed. Hence, they have a unique status under Israeli law. They have special ID cards (which differ from the regular, Israeli passport the Arab-Israeli citizens have).
Those in the West bank…were never offered citizeship.
It should also be noted that Israeli Arabs, though not required, many serve in the IDF (Israeli military). Along with the Druze, they are the ones most usually deployed into the West Bank as they speak fluent Arabic. So this is not a conflict between Jewish Zionists and Arabs. It is a conflict between Israel and pretty much all of its neighbors. When Israel took over the West Bank, Gaza, East Jerusalem and the Golan Heights, they did not take them from the Palestinians.
Gaza: was controlled by Egypt
Golan Heights: Part of Syria
West Bank and East Jerusalem: Jordan (then Trans-Jordan)
But, after Israel took them over, huge cries for a “Palestinian State” within those sections started to made. However, there was never a Palestinian state every in those places! And guess what? Syria, Egypt and Jordan sure as hell weren’t gonna create one!!! This whole land swapping stuff is NOT about establishing a Palestinian state, it is about denying land to Israel in order to make it easier to destroy. Always has been, always will be. Israel knows this, which is why it always buries its head in the sand.
Apartheid is a really popular term, but only people who are 150% ignorant of the situation use it. SA apartheid was a system implemented in order to create two castes of people…the lower which would be taken advantage of and used largely as slave labor. Israel is not interested in that at all. If all the Arabs in the West Bank suddenly disappeared, the Israeli economy would not suffer. Had all of the Africans disappeared from SA, the system would have collapsed. SA depended on the system to keep the country moving, Israel does not. The system is very detrimental to the economy and security of the country.
So yes, using the terms “genocide” and “apartheid” or “expulsion”, “racism” etc do show one’s support for one side, but it also shows one’s ignorance of the actual situation as well as its history. That is just a simple fact.
And yet many people, including more and more jews themselves are warming up to the concept that invading other peoples land and pushing them back into smaller and smaller corners of it is likely going to lead to some bad blood. I would imagine Canadian / US relations would deteriorate quite quickly if the US began using military dominance to push us back into a little corner of Canada no bigger than Northern Quebec. If that were to happen, you may also find Canada grasping at straws looking for ally’s to gain a little bit of strength. Canada / Russia and Canada / China relations would improve quite quickly I would imagine…
Do we have to show a map of Palestine in 1946 vs Palestine today? Perhaps a quick google search might put the whole “defend themselves no matter what” concept in a little perspective.
[quote=“Confuzius”]There is so much disinformation in this thread it is ALMOST funny. The Zionists are not, nor were ever interested in dispelling all the Arabs from the land. Neither did they commit mass genocide.
If EITHER of these claims (which ignorants like to throw around) were even partially true…20% of the legal citizens of Israel would NOT be Arabs. But they are. 20% of Israeli citizens are Arabs.
There are mainly 3 categories of Palestinians (lets leave other Arabs in Israel, such as Druze and Bedouins out for now, since that is clearly too complicated for some of the people commenting in this thread).
- Israeli Citizens
- Arabs in East Jerusalem
3 Arabs in West Bank
The first, are citizens.
The second, were offered citizenship (or are descendants of those offered citizenship) after Israel took over the eastern section of Jerusalem. They refused. They did not want citizenship since the Arab powers that be persuaded them that Israel would soon be destroyed. Hence, they have a unique status under Israeli law. They have special ID cards (which differ from the regular, Israeli passport the Arab-Israeli citizens have).
Those in the West bank…were never offered citizeship.
It should also be noted that Israeli Arabs, though not required, many serve in the IDF (Israeli military). Along with the Druze, they are the ones most usually deployed into the West Bank as they speak fluent Arabic. So this is not a conflict between Jewish Zionists and Arabs. It is a conflict between Israel and pretty much all of its neighbors. When Israel took over the West Bank, Gaza, East Jerusalem and the Golan Heights, they did not take them from the Palestinians.
Gaza: was controlled by Egypt
Golan Heights: Part of Syria
West Bank and East Jerusalem: Jordan (then Trans-Jordan)
But, after Israel took them over, huge cries for a “Palestinian State” within those sections started to made. However, there was never a Palestinian state every in those places! And guess what? Syria, Egypt and Jordan sure as hell weren’t gonna create one!!! This whole land swapping stuff is NOT about establishing a Palestinian state, it is about denying land to Israel in order to make it easier to destroy. Always has been, always will be. Israel knows this, which is why it always buries its head in the sand.
Apartheid is a really popular term, but only people who are 150% ignorant of the situation use it. SA apartheid was a system implemented in order to create two castes of people…the lower which would be taken advantage of and used largely as slave labor. Israel is not interested in that at all. If all the Arabs in the West Bank suddenly disappeared, the Israeli economy would not suffer. Had all of the Africans disappeared from SA, the system would have collapsed. SA depended on the system to keep the country moving, Israel does not. The system is very detrimental to the economy and security of the country.
So yes, using the terms “genocide” and “apartheid” or “expulsion”, “racism” etc do show one’s support for one side, but it also shows one’s ignorance of the actual situation as well as its history. That is just a simple fact.[/quote]
You sure it shows support for only one side or is this just the Isreali version of China’s “you hurt our feelings”?
Anyway, as for the apartheid analogy (and as an academic you surely know that an analogh is not a perfect equivalent) being wrong, tell it to Ehud Barak, any of dozens of Isreali leaders and newspapers and writers, and a number of my Jewish friends, who either warn of a developing apartheid state or say it is here in the West Bank. Why should I refrain from a term a former prime minister and close friends think appropriate?
The simple point is that Isreal is no longer moving in a direction I can support. Your boilerplate response offers nothing in response to that FACT.
And yet many people, including more and more jews themselves are warming up to the concept that invading other peoples land and pushing them back into smaller and smaller corners of it is likely going to lead to some bad blood. I would imagine Canadian / US relations would deteriorate quite quickly if the US began using military dominance to push us back into a little corner of Canada no bigger than Northern Quebec. If that were to happen, you may also find Canada grasping at straws looking for ally’s to gain a little bit of strength. Canada / Russia and Canada / China relations would improve quite quickly I would imagine…[/quote]
Again, you are looking at a real life situation in terms of morals and philosophy only.
If you want to say, “It should have been done differently” then OK, it should have been done differently. However, in the actual world Isreal DOES exist. Do you want it to stop existing? Many Arabs do, as well as the Iranians. So Israelis are paranoid and hypervigilant. You’d probably be the same if you were an Israeli.
[quote]
Do we have to show a map of Palestine in 1946 vs Palestine today? Perhaps a quick google search might put the whole “defend themselves no matter what” concept in a little perspective.[/quote]
Yes, they have occupied areas of strategic importance to their defence.