Dear fellow educators.I don’t know if I was fortunate in my first few years of teaching in Taiwan, but it seems Buxibans are expecting more work for less pay. Just two years ago NT60 000 for 100 was probably the norm, now people are talking in terms of NT50 000 for 100 hours not including this so-called “telephone teaching”, which they expect teachers to do free of charge. I would like to hear about other people’s experiences and what they suggest we can do do improve the situation. Inveterate sychophants are welcome to say their say too. I find it ridiculous that many teachers are willing to accept almost any deal that they get. I am in favor of some kind of solidarity movement among teachers. Even though many of aren’t here permanently, doesn’t mean that there is nothing we can do to overcome the worsening trends in ESL teaching. What we are allowing to happen within teaching in Taiwan is a abomination to our profession. I will endeavor for the rest of my time in Taiwan to work for restoration of the dignity that all teachers should enjoy. I hope I don’t sound too patronizing. I am just interested in the welfare of other teachers and the profession in general. What will we be expected to do next? Teach for food?
The sweet deal for English teachers in Taiwan is over. There are just too many foreigners looking for work these days. We have to get the word out to back home to not bother coming to Taiwan and oversaturating the market. There is a glut of labour, which drives wages down. There are no longer enough good jobs to go around. In the old days, you could quit your job and expect to find another one within a few days. These days, if you leave your job, you might not be able to find another one.
It is not the schools’ fault. Tell people to stop bringing their buddies from back home over.
With such an influx of avaliable labor of course schools are going to ask more for less.
what goes up must come down!
Why should we foreigners get paid twice as well as local teachers?
What value do we bring?
Kenneth
[quote=“KenTaiwan98”]what goes up must come down!
Why should we foreigners get paid twice as well as local teachers?
What value do we bring?
Kenneth[/quote]
it’s market driven. Apparently the parents want to see foreign faces, so the value foreign teachers bring is business.
Good thread Keith.
Twenty years too late, as Lonely Planet author Robert Storey says: [i]
[quote=“KenTaiwan98”]what goes up must come down!
Why should we foreigners get paid twice as well as local teachers?
What value do we bring?
Kenneth[/quote]
I don’t mean to stir the pot by being pro foreign teacher, but when it comes to being more spontaneous in a classroom, expecially in a free talking kind of class, or teaching something like science and history that needs lots of explaning, I’d go with the foreign teacher over the Chinese teacher. If the Chinese teachers sub for these classes, I find them looking up words I feel they need to know longer than 10 minutes to be fully prepared to teach the topic. (Yesterday’s example: exoskeleton, pupa, molt). For our school, the value of having foreigners is quite high, that’s why we’re so picky.
That being said, if a Chinese teacher can do the same thing, in near the same way, with little or no Chinglish, the job is hers.
Perhaps it might be difficult finding a GOOD job, but finding a job is still fairly easy. However, you’ll have to work in one of the counties teaching 4 year olds, for 55,000, and do three hours of buxiban afterward.
I’m looking for a job right now, and experience is actually a deterent, for some reason.
I think what they want now is newbies who have no clue what’a going on. If a Taiwanese school owner suspects you have some knowledge of the ESL system here, they are less likely to hire you because you may be a bit more demanding and less content with ABC books and Let’s Go!
Oh, and let’s not forget the three hours of “office” work where you must be available to every child, Taiwanese teacher and parent who walks in the door.
And this is AFTER you have taught four or five classes 
[quote=“wonder”]
I think what they want now is newbies who have no clue what’a going on. If a Taiwanese school owner suspects you have some knowledge of the ESL system here, they are less likely to hire you because you may be a bit more demanding and less content with ABC books and Let’s Go!
:[/quote]
Well, suffice to say, that not all buxibans are Taiwanese owned, and I for one prefer to hire people with ESL experience. I don’t mind training, but newbies sometimes mind being trained.
I do wonder about SOME more experienced teachers in Taiwan, and I do not mean to imply you are one,( I wouldn’t know) seem to think more highly of their teaching skills than they should. It really depends on where the person has been teaching and the quality of his/her experience.
If someone said she’s been teaching at a Frobel kindergarten for two years, I might assume (correctly) that they are better than someone who has been teaching Hess night classes for two years.
Each situation is very different…that’s why we do lots of interviews with lots of teachers…
I have often wondered myself why there hasn’t been more unity among the ESL community here in Taiwan. Here are my deductions:
1)A diversity of foreign groups.
2)The government’s stance on the foreigner worker.
3)Culture aspects.
4)The market value of the job itself in Taiwan and abroad.
5)Turnover rate
IMO, I think that the large part of the problem lies with the fact that many foreigners don’t see it as a ‘true’ profession,hence the attitude that is simliar to working at a fast food joint, “I’m here in the meantime,til something better comes along…” And the flipside of the coin is the mentality in Taiwan about it. Keith, I think if you have the commitment (which this will require a great deal of) to see this thru, then you should start looking to overhaul the perceptions of ESL, via government. When the government starts laying down laws that protect, and define the role of ESL in the culture, you will see a great amount of change.
Many of the foreign English teachers in Japan are organized by trade unions. You can find links to these groups at the bottom of this page
generalunion.org/links.htm
The lack of organization among English teachers in Taiwan is much more likely related to the political affiliation of workers groups and the fact that it is illegal for foreign workers to organize.
scottsommers.blogs.com/taiwanweblog/
I think the lack of professionalism, competitiveness, and the high turnover are probably the biggest causes for the lack of solidarity. But that’s just my humble.
This is exactly what I have been talking about with some of the other buxiban owners/partners. Some of us would love to get a database of the good teachers, the professionals, the ones who have the heart and experience to teach well consistantly, not a punch-in punch-out type.
I would like to take this further and suggest that a teacher training program could be set up to provide less-experienced teachers with some help before they are thrown unprepared into the classroom. Chinese teachers are always getting training, why not the FT?
Anyway, as an owner/teacher I hate the process of blind interviewing. I would LOVE a database of known professional/experienced/love the job teachers to refer to when we needed a new teacher.
I think a database raises all kinds of privacy and abuse concerns. I certainly do not want my name or personal information on any database accessed by buxiban owners in Taiwan. I just cannot see a system like this being accurate to any real degree because teachers come and go constantly; and buxiban owners in Taiwan are, well, buxiban owners in Taiwan (present company possibly excepted). What would such a database contain? How would you know information contained in it was accurate or not? It would seem to me to be an avenue for tarring a teachers reputation that absolutely would get used by some with axes to grind; or it could get used as a way of making sure good teachers don’t wind up working for competitors. The English buxiban business is fiercely competitve. That seems to me to provide the necessary motive for blacklisting good teachers who quit or won’t sign again or, on the flipside, green listing a real lemon as a kind of poison pill for your competitors. The notion of a database of “good” teachers in Taiwan is pie in the sky thinking at best.
Much the same for a training program. IMHO, the only reliable training program out there is experience. That said, the idea of a centralized training program for buxiban foreign English teachers is a non-starter, even if it could be a reliable substitute for experience. The strongest point against it is the reality that no two buxibans are alike in approach or teaching philosophy. When I’ve changed jobs, I’ve had to learn new teaching styles, books and curriculli. How would you make a training center relevent to an industry wherein every company’s signature style is so totally different? Who would pay for it? Then there is the problem of attracting teachers to Taiwan. ESL is a global industry. If one country puts too many obstacles in the way, the teachers will avoid it in large numbers. A tighter regulatory environment would only shrink the labour market, not something the average buxiban owner dreams of.
I think the only ways to ensure you get quality employees are to pay better than industry average, thus attracting better individuals, and through trial and error. Put the teacher in your classroom fro a few days. You’ll get a better idea of that candidate’s suitability than any database could give you.
I have to disagree here on several points: the first being that the database, albeit a bad choice of words, would not be as accessible as you think. It would be more a private database between schools that are more progressive and honestly concerned about raising the bar in English teaching. I think, it is very easy to find out where a school stands on this. So, would it be a sort of private, elitist club…maybe, but that may not be such a bad thing either. Why not have a rating system, accountability, teaching strong points, weak points, etc…self decribed by the teacher. And references written by former bosses, which are naturally, verifiable.
Also, I think the reverse would happen from the teacer’s POV. Instead of teacher’s fearing being blacklisted if they don’t bend over, the database might serve as the best advertisement for a teacher, thereby raising their own marketability. Most schools have 1 year contracts. After that, the teacher is a free agent, for lack of a better word, and can then be recruited by other schools that know of this teacher. Seems more like a win-win situation . And if the teacher or school does not live up to his or her end of the bargain, then that is also something for other schools to take into consideration when that teacher is looking for a new job. “Why did you leave Joe Blow from Idaho’s school five months early?” “It burned down.” “Oh, ok then.”
This kind of database, listing teachers and schools, would promote transparency, which is alsways good. I think the idea that teachers would not want to bash their schools because other schools might consider them troublemakers; and schools wouldn’t want to bash the teachers beause they might be seen by teachers as hard to work with.
[quote]Much the same for a training program. IMHO, the only reliable training program out there is experience. That said, the idea of a centralized training program for buxiban foreign English teachers is a non-starter, even if it could be a reliable substitute for experience[/quote].
Experience may be a good substitute for tarining, for some people but not all. Some people teach for years and, well, they suck. Maybe a little training at the get go would have helped them immensely. Becoming a better teacher is a actually a good thing you know. It also raises one worth in the marketplace.
There are skills that every good teacher shares. There are ways of teaching reading and writing and phonics and TPR that are basically the same no matter what books are being used. These skills can be taught, or re-enforced. Making teachers better raises the bar for the schools. If a teacher walks into a school and they’re STILL teaching “A A a a apple” and “How are you? Fine, thanks, and you.” and decides not to work there because of this antiquated teaching style, and tells the boss as much, the boss may think, “Damn, why did I lose that good teacher? How can I change to get her back?” This is a business, and trust me, very few buxibans are satisfied with the “face” teacher. Most of us do want the best teachers out there. If they see the money is in teaching TPR, they’ll teach TPR. As for who’d pay for it. I think schools would sponsor a training day…a few hours of teacher training, Qand A. I know I would. I chances are, I wouldn’t charge a dime. I would think it’s a great place to go for serious teachers or people serious about teaching to show their skills. If ten teachers turned up, how many owners would be there to watch them teach? And wouldn’t this be a great way for teachers to advertise themselves and for owners to recruit them?
I was not thinking the database for teachers be public, not controlled by the government. How would that possibly help??
Now this is pie in the sky, and even though a school gets lucky once in a while, this is the most frustrating part of owning a buxiban. The high pay attracts ALL teachers…who’s got time to sort them all out. And putting the teachers in the class for a few days, and what…he sucks? Change him, try another…same thing…try another. This creates friction with parents, “Why do you keep changing teachers?”
I think the halcyon days for English teachers in Taiwan are about over. There has to be a better way for good schools to get good teachers. There has to be a way for teachers to get training and experience that does not include sink or swim in the classroom. Find a better word than “database” and we have our starting place. 
Peace
On the flip side, how does the teacher know if the school is good? Good teachers usually have to get lucky to find a good school. The high pay would ensure that you keep the good teachers that you want. The fact is, and most owners don’t want to face it, you need to pay more to keep an excellent teacher. If you don’t, someone else will. Loosen the purse strings a little and you will, eventually, get the teachers you want. Personally, hiring only experienced teachers is a start. It isn’t perfect, but it definately helps.
[quote=“funkymonkey”]…hiring only experienced teachers is a start. It isn’t perfect, but it definately helps.[/quote]I’m afraid that’s not so. I’m sure you yourself and many other Forumosans are excellent teachers. As a generalization, however, the trouble with experienced teachers in Taiwan is that they can be sloppy, uninspired, set in their ways and unwilling to learn new things or examine their own teaching practice objectively. In fact perhaps experienced is the wrong word. If a teacher spends 5 years doing the same thing that may not add much to his/her stock of relevant, useable experience.
True. However, I find the qualities you mentioned are due mostly to their previous work environment. I have seen previously “sloppy, uninspired, set in their ways and unwilling to learn new things or examine their own teaching practice objectively” teachers who have become excellent teachers due to a change in their work environment. Also, experience can help them learn many different ways of teaching. They learned what works and what doesn’t. On a side note, I would be less afraid of losing an experienced teacher due to reasons such as culture shock, home sickness, realizing they hate teaching, etc. There are up sides and down sides, I guess.
[quote]
On the flip side, how does the teacher know if the school is good? Good teachers usually have to get lucky to find a good school. The high pay would ensure that you keep the good teachers that you want. The fact is, and most owners don’t want to face it, you need to pay more to keep an excellent teacher. If you don’t, someone else will. Loosen the purse strings a little and you will, eventually, get the teachers you want. Personally, hiring only experienced teachers is a start. It isn’t perfect, but it definately helps.[/quote]
Well, giving a teacher high pay BEFORE he or she has proven that he/she is in fact good may be problmeatic, as you must know. Sure’ll I’ll pay you 65K per month, but there’s no warm up period. You should be good from the beginning, and get better over time. Many times, in my experience, the FT will see this as easy money and the quality will drop after the first few months.
The way we work is simple. Your pay is your starting pay. You show us you care, and do well in the classroom, participate in the meetings and training times, you will get a raise. Simple as that. That goes for all our staff. We had a secretary/artist that got a raise each month for four months because she worked her butt off.It would be nice if teachers and owners could understand that they are both on the same team.
I agree with Funky. If you want quality, you generally have to pay for it. There is a correlation between experience and quality of teacher. More experienced individuals tend to do better than less experienced. This isn’t always true (hence I said correlation), but tends to be so in most cases. Conscientious individuals will always manage to do well in something they’ve been doing a while. Those who could give a damn will not improve. Then there are those whose personality just doesn’t suit teaching. Experience does not absolutely mean good, but it suggests it much more so than lack of experience.
To get experienced people, a laoban is going to have to pay for it. Paying the 50-60k ala Hess et al is not going to attract alot of experienced individuals. Paying above average will attract alot more teachers from which to choose the ones who suit the laoban’s school best. It increases the likelihood someone who posesses the magical combination of experience, know-how and talent will come and work for your school and stay a while.
Blatantly obvious, n’est-ce pas? A bit insulting to the ol’ intelligence, as well. Anyway, I disagree with the proposed method for producing so-called better teachers. A training institute run by buxiban laobans (even “elitist” ones) would be a failure from the start. This is Taiwan. Any such attempt at training would quickly deteriorate into the usual test fetish that encompasses most things from high school to driving school in Taiwan. It would also be a non-starter because so few would participate.
I also see little in the way of response to my point that any blacklist would get abused. It absolutely would. Laoban’s have little interest in providing information that may be helpful to competitors. If anything, lack of the sort of information that would be on a database is likely the best endorsement available. Most people who work well, complete contacts and so forth fall under the radar screen. I think, if any database were created, even negative reports would not be available. Why would your competitor wish to help you? I only see laobans with axes to grind against individuals using any such system.
I see in the database and central training center notions an attempt to create uniform standards and universal standards. I agree with the essence of the argument. But, in my view, the only way to acheive anything like this would be to take English education out of the hands of the for-profit sector.