But, how about the idea that some girls kind of act lesbian for fun or to experiement with social personae, but aren’t really into being truly lesbian? I have got that impression here, that acting tomboyish can be kind of a “I ain’t no fuckin hello kitty” statement, or that a tomboyish and feminine pair of girls can be pairing or stronger and weaker styles between buddies, but not necessarily a sexual relationship. Then again, I am genuinely ignorant on the subject. Do you think my impression is correct or flawed?
Yes.
I’m not trying to be a prick… but, unless you’re a lesbian, why do you care?[/quote]
Because some people are curious about the world outside of their own personal existence. If being interested in learning and understanding cultural phenomenon around me is being “nosy,” well, I’d rather be nosy and at least a little informed than completely oblivious and “polite.” Myself, I like to read articles or watch documentaries about sub-culture different than my own, because I think to go through life without a least passing interest in how people might organize and live their lives differently than my own would be awfully dull.
On the other hand, I and other people are. Shocking as it may seem to you, people choose their wardrobe or hairstyles because they identify with and seek to fit into certain groups.
The first several times I saw couples like this, I was quite surprised since at first glance it seemed like they stuck so closely to traditional gender role. Other things I’ve wondered about: What’s the Taiwanese gay male equivalent? Why does there seem to be such little reaction among “mainstream” society? The primary reason why I doubted that the dozens of couples I’ve seen like this walking through the night market were even lesbians was because other people I asked about had no idea. Is the fact that overt homophobia so less prevalent here in Taiwan than in the States because so many people are unaware of its existence?
Yes, it would be very difficult to imagine being a minority living in a society where I was studied and scrutinized because my habits were different than those around me.
Oh, I’m not shocked by this. I’m aware of this. I just don’t understand a) the desire to fit into any certain group and b) the interest in those who desire to fit into any certain group (simply because of that desire or choice of wardrobe and or hairstyle).
That’s all.
Carry on.
I’m not trying to be a prick… but, unless you’re a lesbian, why do you care?[/quote]
Because some people are curious about the world outside of their own personal existence. If being interested in learning and understanding cultural phenomenon around me is being “nosy,” well, I’d rather be nosy and at least a little informed than completely oblivious and “polite.” Myself, I like to read articles or watch documentaries about sub-culture different than my own, because I think to go through life without a least passing interest in how people might organize and live their lives differently than my own would be awfully dull.
[/quote]
Thanks for answering that for me 
I’d hate to think that topics were off limits for discussions unless you had some personal stake!
[quote=“Battery9”]Sadly so…
When you are a lesbian here you need to choose whether you are a T or a P.(T=tomboy, P = Poa? meaning wife…or whatever)
The T’s dress like boys, have short hair, hold their gfs hair while they puke, rub their necks, get jealous and territorial…bind their breasts (not bind, but have these funky bras they wear) etc etc
The Ps have loong hair. … long nails( imagine how much action that poor T is getting…yup…not much)…impractical shoes, clothes, giggles…the usual meimei bs.
and they walk hand in hand…and give each other little pecks…and the Ps blow up their cheeks when they get angry, and turn their back on the Ts…who then have to sortof grovel like a dog that did something wrong…
it’s just terribly yuck and I’m terribly judgemental but having been stared at or blinked at with vague ’ I think I may feel a thought coming’ expressions when I answer ‘I don’t care’ when I’m asked whether I’m T or P, or like Ts or Ps for SEVEN YEARS now…
I have every right to! 
the fun thing about being lesbian is that you are equal…and then BAM…welcome to Taiwan… :loco:[/quote]
I’m so glad you posted! some actual insight!
You couldn’t hazard a guess at my other question could you, namely, what happens to these women when they get into their thirties?
What’s with all the sociological discourse? I’m just looking for some hot teen lesbo pics.
when they get to their thirties?
I dunno…they try kissing using their tongues?
I find anything sexual in Taiwan insanely childlike. Once kissed a girl in a club and there was an applause. Goooooood gawdddd.
i agree, partially. back in the states, there’s still that butch-femme hysteria which is similar to the T/P adherence here.
while i have been asked the T/P question way too many times lately, many taiwanese lesbians i know don’t care about the stereotype. many consider the roles in a relationship to be fluid, and will change their role based on who they are currently dating. one good friend took a stronger role with her last girlfriend because that girl was more girly, but now is the one being taken care of because her current girlfriend is more sucessful and stronger than she is. that said,
now, regarding any gender identity questioning, i do not feel this is the case here. women who dress like T’s are confident in their look and for the most part (as far as my experience goes) are just dressing the way they feel most comfortable.
battery9, correct me if im wrong, but even the most T girl out there won’t tell you she’s a T unless she knows you’re in the club. there might be a girl clinging to her side, but she’ll still just tell you it’s “her style” and nothing more.
I’ve been reading this thread wondering "why am I reading this thread? " when suddenly it occured to me, I have a question! It has been asked before, by greater minds than my own but I’d like to ask it again anyway, here it is…
“Why can’t women who act like men act like nice men?”
Perhaps they do act like nice men and I am so clueless I never caught on.
Feel free. My ignorance is boundless.
[quote=“bob”]I’ve been reading this thread wondering "why am I reading this thread? " when suddenly it occured to me, I have a question! It has been asked before, by greater minds than my own but I’d like to ask it again anyway, here it is…
“Why can’t women who act like men act like nice men?”
Perhaps they do act like nice men and I am so clueless I never caught on.
Feel free. My ignorance is boundless.[/quote]
great question!
I’ve noticed this too. It seems the T’s replicate an idealised version of masculinity which is as detached from realities as that of ‘camp’ men being like women is.
First up, what is with all the dumb responses? I exclude Sandman from that - he was funny as always.
I noticed a similar thing Yamato when I was living in Taiwan. It does seem to be a Taiwanese cultural trait.
Yes, Taiwanese guys who are not gay also touch each other a lot and it can look kind of gay. But I am sure this is different to the lesbian thing.
Taiwan just seems full of open lesbians, doing the whole T versus P thing, and a lot of them rather young. In the four years or so I was living in Taiwan I ran into three different girls (all late teens to early 20s) who explained their relationships with their girlfriends as a temporary ‘phrase’*. They seemed flexible and said they would prefer a guy provided he was the right one. They seemed to rationalize it in terms of the guys being somehow unattractive (being excessively domineering was a common complaint). One of the three even said she was going to make a choice between males and females when she turned 25.
I also think Taiwan has an odd mix of accepting and rejecting lesbianism. That is, mainstream society is very accepting of lesbian type behavior, but at the same time rejects that what it is seeing is truly lesbianism. Society often also seems to explain it as ‘just a phase’. Obviously I am completely generalizing here, but I also knew lesbian girls whose parents appeared comfortable with them dating another female (i.e. they never objected and were happy to include the girlfriend in family activities), but who simultaneously did not accept that their daughter was lesbian - despite it being fairly bleeding obvoius. I think this social acceptance makes lesbians in Taiwan very open.
- I don’t really know why these girls confided in me about this stuff. I think that as a foreigner in a very different culture you sometimes have locals seek you out and use you as a sort of ‘sounding board’ if you like. Guess I’m not explaining myself well, but maybe some of you had similar experiences. When I first went to Taiwan I seemed to be constantly hearing about the personal lives of locals who I really didn’t know very well.
[Edited this post a few hours later. . . Jesus, is my typing that bloody hopeless?]
[quote=“yamato”][quote=“bob”]I’ve been reading this thread wondering "why am I reading this thread? " when suddenly it occured to me, I have a question! It has been asked before, by greater minds than my own but I’d like to ask it again anyway, here it is…
“Why can’t women who act like men act like nice men?”
Perhaps they do act like nice men and I am so clueless I never caught on.
Feel free. My ignorance is boundless.[/quote]
great question!
I’ve noticed this too. It seems the T’s replicate an idealised version of masculinity which is as detached from realities as that of ‘camp’ men being like women is.[/quote]
I had an aquaintance a way back who used to go from one gender to the other on a weekly basis. Her female side was, shall we say, “open,” or at least acted and dressed that way, and her male side was an angry right bastard.
She still switches back and forth but mostly she is male these days (or thinks of herself as a male - looks like girl to me - quite pleasant looking actually) and the male side has softened considerably of late. She’s like a “nice guy,” you know? You can talk to her without being afraid she will bite your head off.
This is really outside my area of expertise but I had two minutes to type so…
I see lesbian couples on the MRT almost every day. Many of them look happy together. I think its cool that they aren’t afraid to be openly gay.
These women are friendly and touchy in a way that I don’t normally see between two Taiwanese females who are friends. In other words, they act like they are lovers, so I generally assume that they are lesbians.
I see far more of them than I do gay male couples. I wonder why that is. Perhaps, with all of the narrow minded assholes in this society and in other societies, there is some concern about aggressive discrimination.
Could have something to do with the fact that so many hetero males have appallingly hypocritical double standards when it comes to their opinions of male and female homosexuals. Lesbian thread=“Let’s see some pics! Cool!” Gay thread=“I don’t want to see this what is this shoving their perverted lifestyle choices down my throat!” etc.
No double standards here, mate. Two chicks = sweet! Two blokes = no thanks! Simple.
HG
Then again, Poagao and the guy at the top of the page, maybe such show us some pics comments are purely puerile, light-hearted jest and don’t merit overanalysis or condescension.
I fully agree that there are double standards about male and female nudity and sexuality in our society (I once started a thread on that after noticing some large statues of nude females in the lobby of my company and contemplating whether they would ever place large statues of nude males there – very unlikely – and if so what kind of reaction they would receive – surely strong and largely unpleasant). But, as for the the forumosa community, I don’t recall any past incidents where posters got overly squeamish or offended or offensive with regard to discussion of male homosexuality. On the contrary, I recall there was once a graphic discussion launched by an apparent heterosexual who was curious about the mechanics of gay anal sex.
After going through the The 20-page thread on Brokeback Mountain, I realize that this is all rather pointless, so don’t mind me, just carry on.
I was nice, though. Except when jdsmith decided to get frisky. Never did get to see it, though – I fell asleep long before the dirty part.
It is odd…how many girls do you know who dream about their bf making out with another man?
I think that many girls here are openly gay, but not to their parents. They use the whole, I play basketball and need short hair as an excuse. The girls I know all are still heavily in the closet. Girls here are very touchy…so it’s easy for them to get away with it even in front of their family. And when the parents know, they think it’s just a phase.
yes, butch and femme is common all over the world, but here, girls come up to you in a club and before they even say hi they just ask you if you are into Ts or Ps. Its incredibly important here.
Hard to know. Needs a poll. I dated one woman, long ago, who had an insatiable sexual appetite and I’m sure she would have answered YES to that question. I’m sure there are many, but your implication is probably correct – that it’s more common for men to fantasize about two women together than vice versa.
Why? Maybe because men are more likely to be nasty, depraved, base animals, more interested in simple physical gratification than in deeper things like feelings, loyalty, trust, and long term relationships. Guys often just want a wet hole to stick it in. Girls want something more. So for a guy, two tits is good, four is better, etc.
Of course that’s not universally true, but that’s my theory. Why do you believe guys are more likely to fantasize about two women together than vice versa?